when to reverse?

[woody]

We have to move a deer to a farm about an hour away. All we have to move her in is a deer box. When should I give her the reversal? We use a telazol/xylazine mix and I just took a safe-capture course and learned to wait 80 minutes before giving the reversal. Is it OK to leave them in the box and wait to reverse or should we wait first and then reverse and then drive her there? When we would move one from our one farm to the other (which is about 30-40 minutes away) we would reverse right away and then take off. They would come out of the box on their own when we got there. Per the Safe-capture course, I learned that was very wrong. They could become re-anesthetized and that's not good. Looking back, they sometimes were groggy for a while but would come around. Now I want to practice what I learned but when should you reverse, when you have a ways to travel? Also, how long can they be in a box, anesthetized or not? Oh, the box does have plenty of holes for airflow.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

As long as the deer is not rolling around while in transit. Keep her in a sternal recumbancy. She will be fine. I have done it before for emergency reasons and had no problems. Just drive cautiously. If she is reversed at the new place with other deer in the pen, she may get beat on by them if she is stumbly yet. Waiting the 80 minutes is very good practice. I used to not wait that long but since I have, the deer recover much smoother and much quicker. I will reverse them earlier on occasion (60 to 70 minutes), but only if it appears they are getting restless at that time. How long in a box you ask..... cool weather, plenty of air flow, room to stand and move around, I have heard as long as 12 hours.

If anyone has ever moved an immobilized animal, please let us know your outcome. This is a rare topic. Jeff

[Deerchaser]

I just darted a deer with ehd today to give meds. Thirty minutes later she got up on her own and I did not get to give her the tolazine. Does it matter if she does not get the reversal.

[Deerchaser]

Robert
Thanks for the information. She does not seem to be sleeping, just laying around.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

The amount of reversal is based on THE BODY WEIGHT of the deer NOT the amount of knock down used. Use just as it says on the label. Jeff

[Droptine]

The amount of reversal is based on THE BODY WEIGHT of the deer NOT the amount of knock down used. Use just as it says on the label. Jeff

Yea, I took that same course last year and heard about the 80 minute reversal time and the reason for it. I try to wait the full 80 minutes, but a lot times I do go ahead and reverse after 60-70 minutes without incident. I always wait the full 80 on my best deer, unless they come around early. However, when moving deer, I always wait till I can get them on their feet before I head down the road.

[buckstopohio]

Just from experience, if you can be around to keep an eye on them we like to just let them sleep it off. We have had several die after reversing and never lost any when letting them just come to on their own. Like everyone esle is saying you have to be sure they body position isn't constricting breathing.

[Antlershed]

I personally would wait the full 80 minutes, or a minimum of 60-70, and I wouldnt leave until she could hold her head up on her own, you got to watch they dont get their nose smashed up against the box and suffocate, most boxes have the sliding doors on each end, so I like to drill a 2" hole in the middle of one of the doors, then push the box the whole way up to the front of the pickup close to the rear window, so you can have a passenger peek in every once in a while and be sure her head is staying up and not getting smashed.

[woody]

Thank you all for the advice. Hey antlershed, we took the safe-capture course together. Hope all is well with you and yours. Thanks for the help. Woody

[Scott Heinrich]

Let's explore the reason for waiting to reverse. Telazol mixed with Xylazine is the reason waiting is required before administering an antagonist. Telazol is uneffected by any antagonist and must be metobalized to dissipate its effects. If you reverse before it is metobalized, the xylazine will be dissipated and the Telazol will remain which could cause convulsions. So waiting until the telazol is metobalized, allows the antagonist to dissipate the xylazine without risk of tremors. If you use straight Xylazine, the antagonist can be administered at any time.

[woody]

Scott, I understand you should wait the appropriate time to reverse (80min. telazol, 40 min. ketamine is what the safe-capture taught) so as not to allow, in my case, the telazol to recycle and reanesthetize the animal causing problems. But my uncertainty is whether to wait the 80 minutes and reverse before we drive to the new farm or travel with the deer anesthetized in the box and reverse when we get to the new place. Beings it is only about an hour away. Keeping in mind if the time the trip takes is longer than an hour, stop and reverse at the appropriate 80 minute mark and then continue onto the destination.

[Scott Heinrich]

Regardless of the travel time involved, I NEVER transport sleeping deer. It is too risky that they may roll over and suffocate from their body weight compressing their lungs or they could aspirate and choke. If they aspirate while drugged, I want to know because it will result in pnumonia in a day or so and I like to hit them with Nu-Flor if I know they have had the possibility of getting fluid in their lungs. Some people here will say I am condesending as to my advice, but it is offered free and taken only by those who understand its intent.

[woody]

Scott, thank you kindly for the advice. I'll take any and all advice (especially from you). I know everyone has their own methods and remedies that work for them so not all advice is the same. I like to gather as much information from as many people that are willing to offer it and then make a decision as to what might work best for me. That being said, sometimes you have to rely on the knowledge and expertise of another and just follow their lead. You are one of those people.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Scott, how does one know for sure if a deer aspirates?

Woody, I'm sorry if I misled you at the beginning of this post. I have moved deer before while down for emergency reasons (escaped deer and to town and back for x-rays) and had success, I guess I was lucky those couple of times. My appologies, Jeff.

[woody]

Jeff, nor reason to apologize. Like i said everyone has their own methods. Not all situations are the same and I'm sure there could be a time I can move one without reversing first. (like emergencies, or just up the road to the next farm) I just like to know what the optimum scenario is so I can strive to practice that but sometimes you need to call an audible. Also, I did not mean your advice is any less better than Scott's, it's just that when I search for information I see he has posted a lot and seems to have been there/done that and is very knowledgeable and experienced. I feel it would be foolish to not heed his advice and trust in his expertise.

[Scott Heinrich]

If you are watching the deer while under sedation you will see it gag. This is a 99.9% probability that while the tongue is distended some of the residual liquid will get into the windpipe. However if you allow your deer to lay there unattended then you will never know if they gag.

[IndependenceRanch]

Scott I was taught that the tongue should be hung out to the down side so they don't choke on it. Your comment about the fluids and the distended tongue has me wondering if what I have been doing all these years is maybe wrong.
What are your thoughts please?

[Scott Heinrich]

Roger you are correct in your observations, but the relaxed tongue also indicates the muscles that control the epiglotis (sp?) are also relaxed and any liquid that is introduced upstream of the valve as is the case in regergitation, will seep back into the windpipe and gravitate down into the lungs.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

So in order to control the liquid not to gravitate down into the lungs, is it always best to keep the sedated animal with the head in a position lower than the body? Jeff

[IndependenceRanch]

Thanks Scott.

[woody]

I have to insert here that at the safe-capture course, Dr. Drew stated that while anesthetized the deers digestive system is suppressed so there could be a build up of gases in the rumen. For this reason the head should be slightly higher than the body so the gas can escape and prevent bloat. But, also because of the suppressed digestion and relaxation of the esophagus muscles, the deer could regurgitate and then aspirate on the fluid. This is when the head needs to be lowered below the body to be able to drain out. This is why they need constant monitoring during sedation. To hear if they regurgitate and to act accordingly. What are your thoughts on this?

[Scott Heinrich]

You are spot on Woody!

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

If the deer is positioned head higher than body to relieve the gas,,,, then the deer regurgitates, is it neccasary to and is there time to reposition the body in order for the liquid to drain out the mouth?

[woody]

I am not as experienced as some others to give advice but I can repeat what I learned in class. The answer is yes it is necessary, and yes do it immediately.