Border opening?

[ikoff]

Heard a rumor up here that Texas is opening the borders. Any truth to it?

[Droptine]

Maybe eventually, but don't think it's happening anytime soon. I've heard rumors in the past, but there's never been anything to substantiate those claims.

[dcwhitetails]

I also heard this.Jan 1 open, only what i heard! Today. Dc

[LJwhitetails]

Heard the same thing a couple of days ago, sure hope so

[Droptine]

Hate to break the news, but they are not opening the Texas borders anytime soon.

[Reed68]

I came out in a Texas based newspaper. I will try to look it up...............

[Scrapelineranch]

I'll side with Steve on this one. Too many breeders don't want it to open...NOT me. It would be great if it did, tho'.

[CurtisLloyd]

this must be the Texas version of Obamma's sell to everyone buy american. If trade is not recriprical it is neither free or fair

[Droptine]

Texas Parks & Wildlife is not our biggest supporter first of all, and they are not going to risk bringing CWD into the state. So far we've never had a case here and that will be there biggest argument. Not to mention that before the borders were closed a lot of people tried to bring full northern deer into Texas like it was a land rush and most of them couldn't survive in this climate. A lot of people lost their butt doing this. Opening the borders gets talked about every year, but I'm telling you it's not in the near future. Don't shoot the messenger :)

[Simonson]

The boarder closed can not only be a CWD thing for they let Elk and Fallow in. Elk have had CWD. They are only keeping it closed for their benefit! Just my thoughts JIM

[Scrapelineranch]

I know your on target, Steve. I am honest enough to admit if my longevity depended on contraversial issues I would approach this subject from a different angle. Most Texas breeders are "Texas breeders".... ' have heard of scoundrels (deed breeders) here but have NEVER met one. But I look back 8 years and what I learned is nothing new to me. People are people. I will never blame a man for protecting his investments. 'not saying I approve of one's methodology for their accumulation of wealth. It does remind me of the public opinion when Kansas limited non-resident hunters to a much lesser number. With years beyond then what impact can be factually substanciated? I haven't learned to end my remarks as does our friend Curtis Lloyd!! God Bless you, Curtis.

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

It seems as though the CWD argument gets less believable as each year passes. With farms that have been testing for 7+ years it is hard to say these pose a risk. At what point is a farm certified CWD free such as a TB certified farm? Even the most pessimistic view of CWD states it can incubate for upto 8 years. So this reason becomes less sustainable as time goes on.

[james]

Do Texas breeders test 100% of animals lost in breeding operations? I have heard they do not. If this is true, then it doesn't sound like they are even looking for it! Someone set me straight if I have received bad info!

[IndependenceRanch]

For some of the reasons stated above already by Jim, WRW, and James, it is so obvious that CWD is the "excuse" for keeping borders closed. But we all know the real reason. $ChaChing$

Separation for ones own greed, versus unity for everyone's survival.

[CurtisLloyd]

If you look or test for CWD you will find it and then over react because it is now a naturallly occuring dissease in our one north american ecosystem

If you don't look or test for CWD then you will never find it and continue on your merry way with your head stuck in your .....sand. Gee if you don't want to get cancer you should never test for it.

[Droptine]

The boarder closed can not only be a CWD thing for they let Elk and Fallow in. Elk have had CWD. They are only keeping it closed for their benefit! Just my thoughts JIM

I'm not real sure how this is benefiting them :confused: If you think TPWD wants to see the deer business thrive in Texas, think again. They could care less, and don't think Elk and other animals aren't on the watch list too.

[Robbie]

James - we are required to test 20% of our reportable deaths (meaning fawns don't count), so 1 in 5 adult losses gets submitted for CWD testing - regardless of why it died. If you watch a deer hit the fence and break its neck, or have a dog get in your pen, or any number of other situations, if it is your 5th death within the reporting period, you still have to submit it.

[CurtisLloyd]

Elk get CWD... sheep get scrapie( same thing) this disease passes easily from species to species

[Castle Rock Whitetails]

Robbie,

We also watch our deer break there necks in fences, and get killed during rut, or just fall over dead after running them through the shoot TB testing, but we have to test 100% of our animals.

Just reading the posts above, I'm guessing there isn't many or any farms in Texas that are on the CWD monitoring program and test 100% of there animals. Even if they did open the borders, who would buy their deer that aren't on the monitoring program and loose your statis.

[IndependenceRanch]

James - we are required to test 20% of our reportable deaths (meaning fawns don't count), so 1 in 5 adult losses gets submitted for CWD testing - regardless of why it died. If you watch a deer hit the fence and break its neck, or have a dog get in your pen, or any number of other situations, if it is your 5th death within the reporting period, you still have to submit it.

Wow! You have to test 20% of the deaths in TX.

I found those numbers soooo interesting so I just hung the phone up with our state Ag Dept. I called to get the very latest info on this topic.
Here is what the state of WI told me a couple minutes ago.

Any whitetail that dies for ANY reason that is 16 months of age or older must be tested for CWD.
As to the animals that are not tested, the rule it is called the 10% rule.
Every farm MUST test at least 90% of ALL deaths, and ALL escapes.
In other words if you have say 10 animals 16 months or older that die (for whatever reason) in one years time, you have to test at least 9 of those 10 animals. The state also has the provision that if an animal escapes it is to be included in the total.
So if you have 1 escape and 9 deaths (for whatever reason. slaughter, hunter kills, dogs, or they hit the fence) that totals 10 animals. But ALL 9 deaths must have been tested because the 1 escape was not tested. If all 9 deaths were tested you still have tested 90% and have accomplished the 10% rule.

Here is where it gets strange.
If you had say 9 deaths and 1 escape, but of the 9 deaths 1 animal couldn't be tested because it was found in the hot sun and was too decomposed to test any longer, you now have 2 untested animals. So you have to kill 1 animal to make up for one of those that was not tested. This gets you back to the 10% rule.

Or let's forget the escape scenario if that throws anyone off.

Let's say you had 10 deaths in 1 years time. And let's say only 6 of those 10 were tested. And 4 of the 10 weren't because maybe they weren't found in time to get a viable sample from them for testing. You now have only tested 60% for the year. So you have to kill at least 3 more animals and have them tested to get you back to 90% tested. That is the 10% failed to test rule here in WI.

I mentioned to him that TX only tests 20% that are not fawns. He said, "Oh my. Well they don't want to find it."

Now don't misinterpret what is being said above. We are required to test 100% of all deer 16 months or older. But the 10% is in place to protect us if we can't get every deer tested because of escape, or a decomposed body.

[CurtisLloyd]

we have basiclly the same here rodger, testing starts at one year and no slippage allowed for the first five years or your status does not progress towards certified

[Robbie]

I wonder if that is part of our border being closed? Maybe because we don't have deer coming in, we can continue testing a lower percentage of our losses?

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

I don't think so - the science of percentages probably doesn't change. You need to test a certain percent to find the likelikhood of the disease in a population. Given all the deer in the Texas it seems this would be a pretty low percentage to say with any certainty that it didn't exist there.

I think it is everywhere and is naturally occuring. Some states have just looked harder than others. It would be interesting to have the current number of deer than have been tested in WI versus the all the deer in WI. I know we ourselves have tested a ton of deer over the past 7-1/2 years. Like I said - when is it enough?

[Robbie]

I agree about the rule of numbers, I should have paid better attention in statistics class:o

Does anyone know if there has ever been a confirmed case in Texas? I haven't heard of one.

[Rainer]

I really dont care on way or the other ( border open ...border closed ) But lets say they do open it, just how is this going to help, were one state and i think there are a few more that you can sell too. Is the the grass greener down here? I live here what grass.
Rain maybe 3 times a year. I know at one time the borders was open and that before it closed that Semi-trailer full of deer was brought in all across the state and if you talk to tha old timers that did bring deer from the north right before it closed that year was the year of the flightless buzzards. Why did they call it that because so many of the deer that was brought in the state from up north died that the buzzards eat so much that they could not fly. I guess my point is that most of deer would not live down here Hell most of you would not live down here. I get maybe 50 or so calls from Ranches for stocker buck ever year and the they always ask how much northern do they have in them. Most dont want any at all... But hey if you want to sell deer in Texas come on down there is lots of room and plenty of places for sale and lots of breeders to buy from almost 900 and most have deer for sale and see if you can stand the heat you might live but most of your deer will not. PS. Mexico is open..

[james]

Rainer, The texas border being opened or closed should make a difference to you. Why? Because raising deer is a passion for most of us and we all want to help one another to promote our industry. How long can greed sustain this industry? Oh, by the way, Mexico is closed to everyone but texas!(unless you can afford to fly your deer down there) texas also controls the interstate hiways as well!

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

James, well said. I would love to sale deer to Mexico. All they need to do is open the border. I could care less about selling deer to Texas, just open the roads. Maybe the Kentucky case will get something going on Texas.

[roughcountrywhitetails]

James, not sure but I was told you can transport deer on Texas interstates now but you can not stop on the way. Anyone else heard this?

[Rainer]

James, If the borders should open i would buy deer from the north, it would help me in my passion to produce the type of animals i want. But greed, I dont think that the reason the borders are closed, most Texas breeders including us spend thousands of dollars on northern semen each year, if the border was open i would be buying more animals than semen. The TDA and the CO-OP both spend alot of time money that the get from members to better the deer industry here in Texas. We all have issues with state and federal Laws right now ours the borders are closed.

[james]

Rainer, I respectfully disagree with you on the greed issue. However, I would also like to add some of those texas genetics to my heard as well. I haven't used any texas semen yet just because of principle. It's a good thing those wealthy folks who control the deer industry in texas aren't in the fast food business because, you might have to pay 35.00 for a Big Mac down there! Roughcountry, I live in Oklahoma, if I want to take a deer to Florida, I have to go to through Arkansas. Since Arkansas wants to be like texas, I have to buy a permit to use their hiways. 85% of venison served in this country is imported from New Zealand, but yet we can not trade clean, monitored, healthy deer across state lines. Can somebody make any sense of this?

[Rainer]

James, The texas animal health commision, is who controls the texas borders for importation of animals it is a state division that can make its own laws on any issues in regards animals and livestock. And we are at the mercy of those @#@#$#$@&^%%$
and the rules never stop changing they say to export you must be monitored for 5 years
but you must also at a D1 how do get to a D1 who the hell knows i think you start out as monitored for 2 years only if you tested 100% then B then to B1 then to F2 then 3E then g5 then back to b3 then to AA3 then to 4by then to 6fw then back to d-2 then after 22 and half years of 100% testing you can apply to move out of state and they will go back to reveiw your paper work and will tell you that they can not find it.. If you was to call then ever day and ask the same question you would never get the same answer but no you can not. This is why almost all of the Texas breeders uses the texas parks and wildlife testing program of only 20%. We have all but gave up but there are a few that can export and there not hard to spot they are the ones wearing knee pads and have a pocket full of chap stick..

[LJwhitetails]

Don't they allow Elk in, or was I miss informed.

[Simonson]

I heard you can take Elk and Fallow deer into Texas. This is correct isn't it! JIM

[Scrapelineranch]

I think the Texas Parks and Wildlife is trying to work with our breeders even with the usual arguments from the "moral majority" who are against high fences and deer breeding. This is the #1 reason I choose the voluntary 20% mortality required by the state. If Texas breeders were controlled by the Ag. dept or some dept. similar to other states, I wouldn't hesitate to comply with the 100% testing because I would have benefits from taxes thru' Ag. and in some cases grants. Tho' not a member of any state breeders organization I know the work and efforts of our main org. is second to none.. you have to consider that a very high percentage of northern deer brought to Texas will die. I'm only guessing that this mortality rate would be 10 times higher than Texas deer moved within the state. Agreed, (I'm an example) that this fact is a risk many are willing to take. O.K. back to a statement I made earlier in this thread...Texas breeders are "Texas breeders" but no more than would be expected if you could put an overlay of "state x" (who sought as much gain from within) over our intentions. I must conclude by saying that even IF big time breeders MIGHT influence to a degree, it is the average hunter on the street that are the most suspect from imported animals. May I have your rebuttals, please!!!

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

We have a hunting ranch in WI and I find the comment about hunters on the street interesting. Why would they care about animals imported to high fence ranches? Those deer don't affect anything other than the ranch they are on. Most farms outside of Texas have been monitoring for disease - TB and CWD - for a long time and probably have some of the healthiest deer to be found. As far as hunters go, once the deer is dead it shouldn't matter where it originated from - they just want a certain type and size of deer.

[CurtisLloyd]

The movement of deer from one farm to another used to be a normal thing common sence dictated that you stay within a geographical area but since deer farming started no new diseases have been created, only the means to test for disease. If AI had not been developed to the extent it is trade in breeding deer would not only be limited to "the Amish" and "the rich" ( no they aren't always the same). Taking Saskatchewan deer to Florida (Didn't work well) texas deer to Wisconsin or any northern deer to an EHD area,........common sense. Can you slowly breed in antler genetics...yes you just have to be willing to pay the price

[Scrapelineranch]

Wild Rivers, I totally agree with you. It SHOULDN'T make any difference but from the "hunter on the street" it seems to. When I high fenced 8 years ago I was accused of inhibiting normal deer movements and patterns that would utimately threaten the quality and quantiy of deer near my ranch. I 'removed" 300 acres of habitat and lessened the numbers of deer to be available for harvest. I know...that's idiotic. This is the mindset of some. It's a matter of wanting to know the truth. For these sorts it's the "what's in it for me" syndrome. Part of the problem, I think, is from what this group sees and believes, is whatever you did benefits you and not them. Bigger bucks, more deer, etc. This not only convinces them what you are doing is not normal but poses a continuing threat, whatever that threat might be. It boils down to the old addage "don't mess with nature". Who are they willing to listen to, me or Poor Ol' Joe who claims he can't afford to hunt anymore? It might not be that way everywhere, I really don't know. I would really appreciate some of your thoughts on the subject. God Bless One and All, Ol' Scrape.

[Tejas Whitetail Genetics]

People - I recently tried to inform everyone that TP&WD was flanging up rules to permanently close the boarders, the comments were due last week! I was asking for comments, I didn’t receive any. I sit on the Breeder User Committee (BUG) here in TX.

Its not about CWD otherwise we would have other known CWD carriers elk and others in a program. There are rules out for comment now for elk in TX but not finalized.
Steve I've never met you but I have sent you e-mail that you never responded to.

Before the boarders closed I brought 10 pure northerns to TX., 4 from Harry Strawser and 6 from Fred Hubner (sp?). Of the original 10 we still have 5, 4 of which have CIDRs ready to be bred in 10 days. I have a 12 year old Pepsi 3 doe that we won't AI for the first time. She is a half sister to the Banshee buck. We have several doe and a pretty nice 2 year old buck out of her and Maxbo.

I’ve never had a problem with the heat and only lost 2 of the original 10 to EHD that I am aware of. The other three died during breeding. I have been crossing these great northern genetics with deep pedigees for 5 years and am very happy that I had the opportunity to do what I did. I have some of the high end northerns crossed with what I think are the best pure TX bucks available. I actually think it’s most important to have the northern on the bottom of the pedigree. Our goal is to build a typical that is ready at 3 and can survive in all conditions. I think if you looked into it most of the top TX breeders started with or had northern blood in their deer. Maybe they didn’t want everyone having access to doe with deep pedigrees?

Its not about disease, it’s about money. Money closed the boarder and money will open it.

[Scrapelineranch]

I know what a.s.s.u.m.e. means but I have to assume everything I post anywhere will be read by everyone, everywhere. I use the higher percentages of mortalities of northern deer brought to Texas by my personnal experience plus other Texas breeders I know have had this happen. I don't have permission to give out their names or locations, but pressed to prove my statement I might hint a little! Seriously, I don't see any need for any of us defending ourselves when we speak the truth. I thank God for any of us who have skirted problems or circumstances that have effected others. I went into this business wanting to have a place for my family to hunt, have free management hunts for under priviledged youths, and a few trophy hunts to offset my expenses. Buying yearling bucks to import was one of my stratagies. Having the borders close was a dissapointment but not a financial "end all". What I can tell you is I would have done things differently had I known that the borders might permanently be closed. I was just getting started and felt unpreasured to make decisions. Feed costs weren't a deterence..permits were 400% less and the economy was more life sustainable. The bible says that the "love" of money is the root of all evil". It's when we equate money to power
that we see the beast for what it is. I am grateful to you all, I know this IS effecting our industry. God Bless One and All, Ol' Scrape. (go to Antlers Bar &Lounge)

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

In WI when you high fence a place you have to drive all of the wild deer out. A DNR rep will come and look your place over to be sure you have - so any argument about taking deer away from the public doesn't hold water. We too heard some complaints about removing habitat when we put our fence up, but that is a pretty ridiculous argument too. There are hundreds of thousands of acres of habitat - all folks have to do is improve what they have to get more deer - our fence didn't affect anything.

[IndependenceRanch]

Anytime someone buys a piece of property and posts the land, or fences the land, it will tick off the locals. The locals "have hunted that land for 20 years" and all the other little stories they have to share for why what the new owners are doing is a travesty to the area and the people.
The fact remains the owners are just that, the owners. And as owners they have the right to do with the land as they will. If they choose to bulldoze it level and blacktop the whole thing so be it. If they choose to put up a fence so be it.

[Scrapelineranch]

WildRivers, your reputation preceeds you and pretty much everything you say can be taken to the bank. Sometimes I refrain from saying what's really on my heart when talking about controversial matters, especially if it is just my opinion. Speaking from my heart...I think some border closings were political and others were "monkey see, monkey do". I believe the public concept of high fencing will always be regarded as "abusing " that which is natural. What is "natural" , a horse and plow working 40 acres, or an 8wheel drive 400hp tractor working 4000 acres? It strikes me odd that science revolves around research when 75% of everything we know we have learned in the last 100 years and 75% of that has been in the last 20 years. We have deer farmers who have been in the business over 20 years who I qualify as cervadae scientist...with NO government funding!! Roger targets his response with no rhetoric...hoo-ra!. But it doesn't sway public opinion. I have said and can be quoted as saying that if some of these departments were to put their money and efforts into fighting poaching, illegal hunting, and qualitative management, the "hunters on the street" would be better served, indeed. TRUTHFULLY, however, you have to interpret it for that. Some of the most vocal of the hunters on the street are "hunters on the road" and God forbid this sacred right be taken from them!!! If YOU were a game warden, which would threaten you more...policing game farms and borders, or pulling up on a drunk spotlighter at night in the middle of nowhere? If YOU were a politician, which would you choose...closing down game farms and gaining some media attention, or reading about some game warden being killed in the line of duty? God bless them. If you were a scientist...