Isotope research project- You can help

[TrubyUSDA]

The National Wildlife Research Center of USDA is conducting an isotope research project with the hopes of assigning distinctive isotope signatures to specific locals or geographic regions. The research is valuable for several reasons; it could help trace the origins of cervids moved for commerce and movements of wild cervids, which could be useful in protecting a farm from disease spread or exposure. It might be possible to differentiate between wild and captive cervids. Our motivation for this research relates to wildlife disease management, and establishing the technique with cervids of known origin will allow us to implement it outside of the fence to improve our understanding of disease transmission patterns and how to best control disease spread.

You can be a part of this important project by sending us hair samples from your deer. In this proof-of-concept stage we are primarily interested in white-tailed deer. We need 12 samples from different deer on each participating farm and a small sample of dirt from right outside the pen. If you happen to be trimming hooves we'd also like to have a small piece of hoof from the same 12 animals.

Sorry all, that was a bit long-winded. If you have any questions about this research or if you'd be willing to participate please send me an email or a private message. I believe some of you have already sent me some samples, many thanks to those who have already participated.

[Scott Heinrich]

Isn't this the same research facility that CWD was discovered at?

[TrubyUSDA]

It's just across the road actually. CWD is one of our main research areas.

[Scott Heinrich]

What happened to the NAIS? Why do we need another system to track animals when the USDA has not been able to get the tagging system implemented? I am confused.

[TrubyUSDA]

The NAIS is still in progress. This method is more for tracking disease spread in wild animals as well as farmed animals. We need samples with known points of origin in order to verify that this method will work. Isotopes are already being used in human forensics as well as some wildlife population studies.

[CurtisLloyd]

truby ,please explain to me why you need samples from deer that are captive if your goal is to track disease in wild deer? These animals have no genetic similarity's to their surrounding population. What age do these animals need to be? How long do they need to be in the current location to give a good test?

[TrubyUSDA]

Curtis, we need samples from captive deer in order to give us a baseline test. We are hoping to find out whether or not this method is feasible and in order to find out if it works we need samples that are from animals that we know about. The animal's age doesn't matter as long as we have a general idea of the age (we need a broad array of samples). It also doesn't matter how long the deer have been in a current location as long as we know when the deer arrived in that location and where it came from. One of the questions we are hoping to answer is how long an animal would need to be in a given location before the isotopes in the animal would correlate with the location.

[Rainer]

Please explain how and why giving you samples would help us as deer farmers.

[TrubyUSDA]

If this method works it could help us (and ultimately, you) to be able to trace the origins of animals. Being able to trace where an animal has been could help to prevent disease spread or exposure, this method could also be useful in recovering lost/escaped/stolen animals.

[Jack]

Interesting as this may be for those studying this it really has no real use for the game rancher as I see it either now or in the future.
My reasons on this are we already have State identification on all animals. In my state they can track the animal from birth to death so all issues are already covered there. If we really want to iD our animals from thieft we have proven DNA for that.
Just my opinion on this.

[CurtisLloyd]

Truby, you can see a little reluctance from the group, government agencies in all states and provinces,as well as both federal governments have made claims in the past, the old saying "Were from the government and were here to help you", using the top down, hammer mentality when dealing with deer farmers, listening to "the Scientists" because the have "scientific" data and ignoring deer farmers experience, which is basically a long term daily study. You may get a few to help in your study, but the majority will be silent, mostly from the lack of trust, support and public education that the government refuses to take a stand on and let the data speak when anti hunters and holier than thou hunting groups blatantly accuse deer farmers of generating new diseases and spreading them the pure pristine wild population. Fool me once,shame on you, fool me twice,shame on me.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Amen!!!
No matter how much of a caring and helpful person you are...You can only get bit by a mean dog so many times !!!
You learn to be careful it don't bite ya again...and you learn he'll grab ya without you putting your leg in his mouth for him!


Uh if ya know what I'm talkn' bout!
I feel we have more targets on us as farmers then our deer do!

[Mi bucks]

I know where you guys are coming from, but think I'll wiegh in here just to bring a different viewpoint for the sake of discussion. In Michigan after the one positive test for CWD one of the many things our DNR did to repress our industry was to claim that the farmer with the index case smuggled in the sick deer from out of state. They contiue to insinuate this with no evidence. As far as I know they failed to preserve any forensic evidence and they have no real reason to spread these rumors. If this isotopic database were in place and proven accurate they would have had to lie about something else:rolleyes: The more open we are the better we look . Personally I stand behind this.

[Jack]

One thing I have learned with dealing with government agencies is that they will supply negative information on the deer industry as long as it fits the agenda of closing this industry down. The DNR of Montana which was the deer industries regulator agency supplied much negative information to help shut down the industry. Never was a positive statement made by the DNR for the industry they regulated.

The agency that studied CWD for over forty years was very silent when our critics made the attack on the industry that we were the cause of the CWD problem. They were more than willing to let the industry take the hit for the CWD problem. One would think after studying the CWD problem for over forty years they would have concluded it was a wildlife problem from the start and not a cause from the deer industry. Yes this industry could cause a spreading of the problem if the industry didn't help put in place testing requirement to make this a safe industry for both wildlife and private raised deer and elk. This industry didn't fail it's responsibility to wildlife but the other agencies sure did.

Wildlife experts studied the CWD problem for over the forty years. One would have thought the experts would have put movement requirements on wild harvested deer and elk from the hot spots with CWD to stop the spread of CWD. But no they were more interested in the money wild hunted animals could make for the State and were silent. Trust is earned and as an industry we should look at past patterns of operation from agencies.

[Scott Heinrich]

I for one cannot trust any government agencies to help the deer farmer. All I have ever gotten from helping these agencies is more regulations and alot of grief. I decline to participate in this program and will recommend to all those I contact to decline as well. I really can't see the need for this program with all the other regulations and testing we have to do to be in compliance with state anf federal rules and regulations. Truby, maybe the cattleman's association can participate as it is proven that humans can contact BSE and that is a bigger concern to me.

[TrubyUSDA]

Thanks for your input everyone. I understand where you're coming from, coming from a cattle ranching background myself. I appreciate everyone keeping it civil. I'll still request help from anyone willing to give it. In my opinion, everyone would be better off if we could all work together towards a common goal. But, unfortunately, not all government employees feel that way and some are looking for someone to blame for anything that goes wrong instead of just dealing with the real issues. Scott, the cattleman's association might indeed participate but that won't help me much as the research we are conducting pertains specifically to wildlife species but I appreciate the suggestion.

[dsjm]

I think many on here are afraid that being able to trace a deer to a specific location could lead to the uncovering a lot of illegal movement and a lot of illegal activity. Just my 2 cents.

[Deerchaser]

I think if you go back and read past comments on the government handling of deer farmers you will see why we are concerned. The people on here, for the most part, are honest, helpful and have the best interest of the animals at heart. It has nothing to do with moving of deer. It has everything to do with trust and the truth. The government will only use science when it helps them further their cause. Look at global warming for an example. The government nor us really no if there is any truth to global warming. But it is a fact that they ignore information that does not further their cause. Obama just had the EPA declare global warming harmful to humans to substaniate the promises he is going to make at the big global warming conference. If global warming exist and is harmful to humans, why is the average life expectancy steadily increasing? You can't have it both ways unless your Bill Clinton.

[H&M Whitetails]

deerchaser watch what you say dsjm could be working for al gore and he migh be thinking that captive deer might be adding to global warming more than the ones in the wild

[Jack]

I think many on here are afraid that being able to trace a deer to a specific location could lead to the uncovering a lot of illegal movement and a lot of illegal activity. Just my 2 cents.

Truly the responce of someone new in this industry that hasn't lived through any government abuse to close down this industry. If you were a game farmer in Montana you would no longer trust you DNR or your government. But then again if you were a game farmer in Montana you would more than likely be out of business as 80% of the farmers have gone out of business and the rest are here only for the fun and pleasure of the animals.

I would expect this type of comment from a critic of the industry or animal activest but not from a deer industry person.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

H&M... I like the way you think...LOL

There is no information about him (dsjm)...
I would be surprised to find out that he had deer ...If he did I would be real surprised to find out that they were/are GOOD ONE'S... because I know many off us that have big money into it and are in it for the long haul wouldn't risk something like that for
1 ...making your heard sick ...
For 2... it is the law...
Yes...There may be a few whom are in it to turn a quick BUCK>>>But I feel that is not the norm!

[Jack]

Sportsmanship in Hunting Act – H.R. 2308 – To prohibit "Internet hunting" (computer-assisted remote hunting where guns are aimed and fired with the click of a computer mouse), and to ban interstate and foreign commerce of captive exotic animals for "canned hunts" (trophy shooting of animals penned within fenced areas).

Leaders: Reps. Cohen, Sherman and Whitfield

Another law in the making to take away our humane method of harvest of these animals from uninformed people. I have no problem with the Internet hunting being closed down. But if this second part were to be made law we are all then just raising pets and not food for people and this industry is gone.

The new area that is being used to close this industry down is the Federal government. Why take us out State by State when they can do it Nation wide with Federal laws. I trust my government to try to put this industry out of business by any means including unjust laws and lies with the help of uninformed do gooders. Just my 2 cents also.

[dsjm]

If global warming exist and is harmful to humans, why is the average life expectancy steadily increasing?

You can't be serious about this???

[dsjm]

Truby, a few posts down you will see where a guy was found guilty of illegally transporting deer to SC from Ohio. This is the real reason the industry will never back the study. Why would they want to make it easy for the law to track their illegal animals? A lot of illegal movement of animals in this industry. It is the dirty little secret of the deer breeding industry.

[Deerchaser]

Not only is dsjm a mind reader, he seems to be a scientist. By the way I didn't say global warming didn't exist. I just don't trust the epa to be honest about the facts, whatever they are.

[Scott Heinrich]

Let's look at what federal and state government has given the deer industry for participating in research programs...........CWD? Wasn't it found in a research herd directly across the road from Truby's place of work? Euthanised animals being transported legally through Kentucky? The courts ruled in favor of the transporter in this case, but the animals still had to die for no reason. Tenn. illegally imported elk into their state as part of their elk restoration and when they tried again, our industry challenged them and USDA agreed with us. NAIS...what a joke....this system, although a good idea is not feasable, nor is it enforceable. Take it from someone who has had experience with state and federal regulations, government intervention means politicizing our industry. I for one prefer to remain free from the winds of politics and just enjoy raising my livestock.

[dsjm]

Not only is dsjm a mind reader, he seems to be a scientist. By the way I didn't say global warming didn't exist. I just don't trust the epa to be honest about the facts, whatever they are.

Nice attempt at some crawfishing. You saying you did not try and coorelate GW and life expectancy? Don't have to be a mind reader to see how messed up that statement was.

[dsjm]

Let's look at what federal and state government has given the deer industry for participating in research programs...........CWD? Wasn't it found in a research herd directly across the road from Truby's place of work? Euthanised animals being transported legally through Kentucky? The courts ruled in favor of the transporter in this case, but the animals still had to die for no reason. Tenn. illegally imported elk into their state as part of their elk restoration and when they tried again, our industry challenged them and USDA agreed with us. NAIS...what a joke....this system, although a good idea is not feasable, nor is it enforceable. Take it from someone who has had experience with state and federal regulations, government intervention means politicizing our industry. I for one prefer to remain free from the winds of politics and just enjoy raising my livestock.

Usually when a post starts out with an insult you can bet not much substance will follow... Case in point....

[CurtisLloyd]

dsjm, if thats your real name this is a deer farmers site , I don't know how you got confused with PETA . If you don't own or farm deer or want to in the future I suggest you find another web site to stir the pot on, cowards hide and don't post in the clear with their name for all to see

I respect trubyUSDA because they hid nothing, unlike you

[dsjm]

dsjm, if thats your real name this is a deer farmers site , I don't know how you got confused with PETA . If you don't own or farm deer or want to in the future I suggest you find another web site to stir the pot on, cowards hide and don't post in the clear with their name for all to see

I respect trubyUSDA because they hid nothing, unlike you

That always seems to be the cop out people use when they can't put together an intelligent argument. It is always the "I don't know who you are!" whine. Or the old standby "you are a PETA supporter". Let me fill you in on something, I do not know who you are either. Difference between you and I is that I really don't care who you are.

[fars]

Truby,

Will this be used in traceback to determine where a diseased animal orginated from? If so will it be used in conjuction with tags and movement forms or will surplant them as a new system? If it surplants the current system will the tag system become obsolete?
Secondly, it was my understanding the USDA was against using testing as a means of traceback. In the past, I know they declined using DNA tests to verify an animal's identity, when tracing back possiable CWD sources in WI. I was told it might set a precedence that could slow down their ability to terminate a quarantined herd, or react as needed to stop further transmission. Is the USDA reversing this policy?

[fars]

Global Warmer by CO2 is unlikely for the following reasons:

The earth is a CO2 buffered system. This means the more CO2 you have the more plant growth you are going to get..which in turn increases the amount of oxygen and decreases the amount of CO2. Also if the temperature is climbing..it just opens up more area for plant colonization especially in the oceans. Increased temps also allow for more CO2 to be absorbed by the water..especially by freshly melted ice water. Besides an increase in temperature is going to help optimize the enzymes that are used during photsynthesis.
All these things work against global warming by CO2. However everyone produces CO2 in varies levels thus making it a very attractive way create a tax on something that has been declared harmful.

On the other hand the sun seems to be more inactive than it should be during this part of it's 11 year cycle. These solar physicists actually say there has been a 0.7 C decline in world temps between last year and this year.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/06Dark
http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview. ... e=5982&log
http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 49,00.html

[MissDeer]

In case any of you don't know who dsjm is I go to preator3's profile in the album section. He is the one listed as PETA president.

[Rustyblaster]

It doesn't take a genius to discover that Scott is a stand up guy. But if you had any experience with this site you would already know Sir Heinrich and his widely dependable knowledge of the industry. I have not met him personally but I can say with a fair amount of comfort if he calls someone an idiot they had it coming!
In my opinion, illegal transporting is a very small percentage of the industry movements. If you have a substantial investment in your herd you have already jumped through the hoops to make interstate transporting legal for your deer. It doesn't make good business sense to try to capitalize on a black market demand for illegal deer when the end result cannot be substantiated in a certified herd. Just my 2 cents!

[Russell]

Okay, this is getting alittle out of hand. Heated debate on important issues is okay, but personal insults are not!

So let's stay civil, or else the dreaded delete button will come into play. :o

Russ

[TrubyUSDA]

Truby,

Will this be used in traceback to determine where a diseased animal orginated from? If so will it be used in conjuction with tags and movement forms or will surplant them as a new system? If it surplants the current system will the tag system become obsolete?
Secondly, it was my understanding the USDA was against using testing as a means of traceback. In the past, I know they declined using DNA tests to verify an animal's identity, when tracing back possiable CWD sources in WI. I was told it might set a precedence that could slow down their ability to terminate a quarantined herd, or react as needed to stop further transmission. Is the USDA reversing this policy?


fars, this traceback could feasibly be used to determine where a diseased animal originated and where it has been spending it's time. This system could be used in conjunction with tags and movement forms but I doubt it would ever surplant that system.
Also, this system could be used to track where an animal has been recently whereas DNA testing only tells us where the animal originated. I doubt that the USDA is reversing it's policy about using DNA testing as a means of traceback. This test is more to help us determine disease spread/transmission patterns, for example, a while back there was a moose found dead in Wyoming which tested positive for CWD (hundreds of miles from any other known cases). If we can get this test to work we could determine whether this moose had always lived in that region and the disease had just popped up randomly or if the moose was on a walk about from an area that is known to be infected.

On a different note, dsjm, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting everyone here (and that includes me). I wouldn't be requesting help from people that I believed were dishonest or criminal. The people on these forums are generally very helpful and just because they may not agree with the research I am conducting is no reason to insult them.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

I have to agree with the true deer farmers on this site and would not be willing to take part in a "study" to cover something all ready in place! Here in Mo. we have a plastic eartag,metal ear tag and a "tatoo". If thats not enough for you to trace the origin of an animal then i don't know what would.

[dsjm]

fars, this traceback could feasibly be used to determine where a diseased animal originated and where it has been spending it's time. This system could be used in conjunction with tags and movement forms but I doubt it would ever surplant that system.
Also, this system could be used to track where an animal has been recently whereas DNA testing only tells us where the animal originated. I doubt that the USDA is reversing it's policy about using DNA testing as a means of traceback. This test is more to help us determine disease spread/transmission patterns, for example, a while back there was a moose found dead in Wyoming which tested positive for CWD (hundreds of miles from any other known cases). If we can get this test to work we could determine whether this moose had always lived in that region and the disease had just popped up randomly or if the moose was on a walk about from an area that is known to be infected.

On a different note, dsjm, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting everyone here (and that includes me). I wouldn't be requesting help from people that I believed were dishonest or criminal. The people on these forums are generally very helpful and just because they may not agree with the research I am conducting is no reason to insult them.

Fair enough. If you are not prepared to hear the real answer though you probably shouldn't ask. The USDA really doesn't have much teeth when it comes to enforcement anyway. It is usually a letter of warning or an admin. penalty.

[dsjm]

I have to agree with the true deer farmers on this site and would not be willing to take part in a "study" to cover something all ready in place! Here in Mo. we have a plastic eartag,metal ear tag and a "tatoo". If thats not enough for you to trace the origin of an animal then i don't know what would.

ear tags both plastic and metal can be switched out very easily. Tatoos usually fade so bad you can't read them after a few years anyway. Unless you use a real tatoo gun like we use.

[Donna Heinrich]

Gee - sounds like someone has had alot of experience in fraudulent identification of animals. Perhaps even hangs with farmers that transport animals illegally. Mama always says: You play with trash - you get some on you. Tell me - have you had any experience with microchips? How can you make them read differently?

Lady Heinrich

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

Gee.... dsmj good to finally have a real expert on here !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D

[Jack]

Why are we responding to dsjm with his could happen, might happen, the industry is full of dishonest people attitude when we know the majority of deer farmers are honest. His mind is made up and will not change. If he knows so much about the problem he should be turning the people into the authorities. The guys that do movement of animals without paper work and testing get caught sooner or later. I for one have addressed this for the last time and have no interest in his opinion. Let's all move on as he and his opinion are not worth our time.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

Jack..I agree whole hartedly we all have better things to do....We can't get drug down by people who are of a mindset we can't change! God bless those who choose to help keep our industry headed in a positive direction.

[fars]

Truby,

It's intresting research for sure. Seems more or less like a good way to trace the spread of a disease effectively backward. But, I think it would have sever limitations.
For instance, I live in Central MN and have deer pens on drained peat bog, crushed sandstone/clay, glacial till (sand and gravel), along with ancient lakeshore sand and brown clay. With this many different soil types on a single farm, you would almost need samples from every pen wouldn't you? On wild deer, yes all the soil types should more or less equal out, but pen raised deer are more limited in their travels and thus they might be way off baseline.
Another potential problem would be soil transfer. Example; in attempt to neutralize some acid soil we had a load of crushed limestone brought in from southern Nebraska. Perhaps deer from that pen catches some dreaded disease and dies. The isotope test comes back saying the deer is from a southern region of NE. Since no deer farms are in that area, obviously that deer orginated from the wild and obviously we are guilty of a multitude of crimes even though that deer was born in the pen he died in.
I think it's good research, but the application might be problematic as a test.

[dsjm]

If he knows so much about the problem he should be turning the people into the authorities. The guys that do movement of animals without paper work and testing get caught sooner or later.

Jack, I do my part. Thing is everybody should be reporting illegal activity and frankly it does not happen because this is such a tight knit group everyone if afraid of making the wrong people mad or getting "black listed". Tell me Jack have you known of or heard of any animals being moved illegally? Have you contacted the authorities about this? Why not? Nobody wants there name out there as a snitch. Especially in this business.

[dsjm]

Gee - sounds like someone has had alot of experience in fraudulent identification of animals. Perhaps even hangs with farmers that transport animals illegally. Mama always says: You play with trash - you get some on you. Tell me - have you had any experience with microchips? How can you make them read differently?

Lady Heinrich


I didn't address microchips as that is not what whtl sanct was talking about. He specifically mentioned plastic tags, ear tags, and tatoos. Who out there requires microchips?

[TrubyUSDA]

Truby,

It's intresting research for sure. Seems more or less like a good way to trace the spread of a disease effectively backward. But, I think it would have sever limitations.
For instance, I live in Central MN and have deer pens on drained peat bog, crushed sandstone/clay, glacial till (sand and gravel), along with ancient lakeshore sand and brown clay. With this many different soil types on a single farm, you would almost need samples from every pen wouldn't you? On wild deer, yes all the soil types should more or less equal out, but pen raised deer are more limited in their travels and thus they might be way off baseline.
Another potential problem would be soil transfer. Example; in attempt to neutralize some acid soil we had a load of crushed limestone brought in from southern Nebraska. Perhaps deer from that pen catches some dreaded disease and dies. The isotope test comes back saying the deer is from a southern region of NE. Since no deer farms are in that area, obviously that deer orginated from the wild and obviously we are guilty of a multitude of crimes even though that deer was born in the pen he died in.
I think it's good research, but the application might be problematic as a test.


Fars, you bring up some good points. I agree that it could be problematic as a definitive test for deer farms but the applications for wild deer could be very beneficial. Also, while the soil type within the pen does play a role in the isotopes we could detect in the deer, there are several other factors that would help to negate that problem. The isotopic signature of an area comes not only from the soil but also from the water, air, and feed. So, if you feed pelleted ration or a special mix which is made from local ingredients it might still be possible to pinpoint a location given these other factors. Given your example of the crushed limestone, it's doubtful that the deer would exhibit an isotopic signature specific to Nebraska because of the other factors but I see your point.

[fars]

Truby,

I didn't even think of water and feed! All our feed comes from quite a bit south further and the water is a mix of surface ponds or pumped from a well 180 feet down. So I don't think it's going to correspond well with the local wild deer, but the air is the same..:)
I wouldn't be against sending you some samples, but we try not to work the deer in the winter monthes and even in the summer we try to have as little interaction with them as possiable. Have you tried hides for habitat? They have local drop off points. Also you might consider trying some of the sportsmen organizations. Some of them are seriously conserned about CWD and other deer diseases already and I am sure we would be glad to help.
Anything that could be done to learn the exact transmission route of CWD is likely to be benefically deer farmers. Currently, it seems if no one knows how CWD reached an area, deer farmers are blamed for lack of other evidence. I hope your project works out, though I imagine CWD isn't a top concern for the USDA.

[kcfarms]

wouldn't your research provide a better baseline by talking with local deer processors and hunters? There are so many variables that go into farmed animals that the statistical baselines would almost be unobtainable. May be a little late to get a lot of information this year but I would imagine by issuing statements through the local DNR offices asking for these items and ask for hunters cooperation you would be able to get a better geographical reference. After all it seems that deer farms are geographically isolated. How would you establish a reference sample from a state that didn't have any deer farms?

I do understand what the research would mean to tracking the disease, however I think this is the wrong way to go about it. Unless the research is really looking for something else, and that is the bigger question?

[TrubyUSDA]

KC and Fars, I appreciate the input. The next step in our project would be to contact sportsmens associations and DNR offices. But, before we can do that, we have to find out if this type of testing will actually work on deer (although there is little doubt that it will work we have to have hard evidence). In order to prove that this method works we have to have samples that come from deer whose whereabouts for the last 3 months to a year are known. If we went with the hunter-killed samples first there would be no way to verify that the animal had been in that region for an appropriate period of time. Also, we don't need samples from every state we just need enough to verify that we can get a unique isotopic signature within a given range. That signature could then be correlated to isotopic maps which already exist.

Fars, I appreciate the offer to send in some samples but I completely understand not working your critters right now- if you'd be interested at any point in the future when you'll be working your deer please let me know. Oh, and while CWD isn't necessarily a top concern for the USDA as a whole it is of top concern to my particular department (I work for the wildlife services branch of the National Wildlife Research Center- specifically for the CWD project).

KC, I'm trying to be very honest about what we are trying to do with this research and as far as I know we're just looking to develop new methods to understand disease spread in order to benefit the wildlife community as a whole. That being said, I understand that you might be somewhat leary of government projects because of past experiences.

[Scott Heinrich]

Truby do I undrstand correctly that that this method works only on samples that come from deer whose whereabouts for the last 3 months to a year are known? How would this type of variable location data be useful? If you were to locate a diseased animal, how would you know its "origin" if the tracers are only good back to 12 months or so and the gestation period on the disease is 12-16 months? By the time deer with CWD become symptomatic, they may have exceeded the window for your test to be accurate. I guess I need to do some more research into this to fully understand the validity of the test. I want to be certain the USDA isn't going to develop this into an accepted standard like their TB screening test and have something that gives as many false positives as that.

[Tim Condict]

Truby,
I have always worked with the USDA and the Oklahoma Department of Agriculture on many issues that I feel help the deer farmers and those departments work together for the common good. I find the majority of Ag related government employee's to just be a bunch of farmers and ranchers with degree's. Kinda like me except better educated. I have spent countless days flying to Washington D.C. and driving to Oklahoma City working on prospective CWD rules. AS I WRITE THIS I HAVE WAITED 7 YEARS FOR THE CWD UM&R TO BE TAKEN FROM SOMEONES DESK AND PUT INTO FORCE. I WAS THINKING MAYBE AFTER YA'LL FINISH THAT YOU COULD START THE ISOTOPE RESEARCH. There are several issues that make farmers reluctant to work with the Government on any front. Well for instance, I see you are at Fort Collins. I can't remember very well but CWD came from somewhere out in Colorado didn't it. Hope those folks have started observing the biosecurity measures out there. Please don't let any more diseases out of the research facility there to devestate our industry. Farmers have had to pay the price for the endangered species act as well, losing property for any number of reasons. Then there was the spotted owl debacle, which if you get down to it, loggers are farmers as well. Now we have the wolves reintroduced to the greater Yellowstone area. With a promise of a few packs of wolves that would take 50 years to reach the number that the so called preservasionists wanted to roam there. Well we have surpassed that by hundreds and the elk bulls left there have developed homosexual tendencies since the wolves have killed and eaten almost all of their prospective female lovers. Now the cattle ranchers in the area that were called alarmist and self serving, are having their cattle eaten at a rate that is shocking. I could go on and on about things like West Nile, but everyone knows what I am saying here. I figure you to be a person of good character, raised on a farm or ranch and have the best in mind for all involved. The problem with the government agencies are not the initial intent of an idea, its how it can be bent around by other agencies or folks with a score to settle or further an agenda. Someday Truby I'll buy you a beer and tell you the story of how the USFWS raided my home, tore it to pieces and charged me with felonies in a Federal Court over a few deer that I had permission by the Secretary of Agriculture and the State Vet to bring to Oklahoma. Never did figure out why they had to check the wife's underware drawer for deer related items. To your credit, the USDA (big wigs in Washington) and all those involved from the Oklahoma Department of Ag, fought tooth and nail for me. I will always be grateful for that. It didn't change anything much but was just nice to see them all do what was right. I bet you know that Oklahoma State Vet real well. If you see him tell him I said hi. He is a standup guy.

[TrubyUSDA]

Truby do I undrstand correctly that that this method works only on samples that come from deer whose whereabouts for the last 3 months to a year are known? How would this type of variable location data be useful? If you were to locate a diseased animal, how would you know its "origin" if the tracers are only good back to 12 months or so and the gestation period on the disease is 12-16 months? By the time deer with CWD become symptomatic, they may have exceeded the window for your test to be accurate. I guess I need to do some more research into this to fully understand the validity of the test. I want to be certain the USDA isn't going to develop this into an accepted standard like their TB screening test and have something that gives as many false positives as that.

Scott, this method should work to trace origins of animals whose origins are unknown. For this stage, we are trying to prove that the concept works and therefore we need samples from known origins. The tracers could potentially be good for a much longer time period than 1 year depending on what tissues are used for the test (i.e. hoof samples would represent a much longer time period than hair while muscle tissue/blood could potentially represent a shorter time period). There are no plans for this to become an accepted standard test of any kind (according to my supervisor and he's a stand up guy), and again the primary application would be to help understand movement/transmission patterns. I'd be more than happy to send some articles on this type of research if you'd be interested.

[TrubyUSDA]

Tim, I understand your frustration. You wouldn't believe how many things we can't get put into practice because someone who spends their life behind a desk and never sets foot outside doesn't understand the importance of actually applying the research that we pour our lives into. As for CWD originating in Fort Collins, yes, it this does seem to be the epicenter. Speaking for myself and my project, we are extremely careful with biosecurity issues (double fencing, dedicated boots/clothing, disinfectant, working on an environmental decontaminant). Unfortunately, many of the issues you address have been poorly handled and, as you say, things are often bent out of shape by people who are looking out only for themselves. In an ideal world we could all work together and actually accomplish something but for whatever reason there is still a lot of inter-agency competition which often leads to poor communication and self-serving actions. I'd love to get that beer sometime and hear your stories, it is my unfortunate privilege to be part of a generation which rarely takes time to listen and learn from people with more experience and I'd like to be one of the few who can learn from past mistakes and injustices so that I can do my best not to repeat them.

[Tim Condict]

Truby,
I may be a lousy judge of character(but in this case I think not), but when reading all your posts, I felt you are very sincere and have a high moral character. I feel that I am right. I agree so much with what you say and it is a shame someone like yourself would not be able to accomplish actual good things because of the misdeeds of others. Its just like the CWD issue itself. While at USAHA one time it seemed that some folks were only interested in pointing fingers about who spreads CWD. I stood up and told them, if you point your finger at me I will do my best to bend it backwards. We have CWD in the United States. At this point what does it matter how we got it. The real question is what are we going to do about it. I believe we should all work together to figure out the best way to stop or control it. As deer farmers, we are able to basicly eradicate it from farmed cervids over a period of time through monitoring our herds. Apparently the wild herds are the basis of the most concern. However as we are regulated to death, states that don't allow deer importation(Texas, Alabama ect) will willingly allow you to bring home carcasses from endimic areas of the country, dump the remains in the back forty and then point their finger at the closest deer farm when CWD breaks out. I think that is what grinds deer farmers the most. I feel fortunate to be from Oklahoma, where the state government and the people seem to have alot of common sense. We work together to make sure we can do business while making sure all is protected. In those states that don't allow importation or Texas that won't even allow us to drive through with a USDA sealed trailer, just proves to me the motivation is not about CWD, but about some fat cats lining their pockets. The best way to get deer farmers working on your side, have the Federal USDA call BS on the Texas transportation ban, get the UM&R out and get the blood test done for TB in Cervids. Now thats the things we need. Lets get this done and I assure you I will personally deliver you all the isotopes you could dream of. We both know thats probably not going to happen to fast. I have developed a lot of respect for you. You could have tucked tail and run, but instead have stayed and logically discussed your issues. I appreciate that. The beer is a done deal and maybe you should come to Oklahoma and speak at our deer farmer convention. By the way you didn't say if you knew our former state vet. Thank you Truby, you are a patriot and not a pinhead.

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Very well said Tim. ( and only 150 lines) lol. We need some good folks in the goverment agencies that know what it takes to get a farmed product to market. Truby, i would like to hear you speak at the Whitetails of Oklahoma meeting. It would make for some lively conversation. ( and maybe, just maybe keep ol' Tim silent for 10 seconds) Good luck with your project.

[TrubyUSDA]

Thank you Truby, you are a patriot and not a pinhead.

Thanks Tim, I appreciate that and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the futility of pointing fingers. What's done is done let's all try to solve the problems instead of adding to them by trying to place blame. As to the question of whether or not I've met the former Oklahoma state vet, I don't believe I've had that honor but he sounds like my kind of guy.

[Shawn Schafer]

I received a call from a NADeFA member that remembered Tara from the NADeFA conference last year and was wondering if I was still supportive of this research and if so, thought I could offer a little more information here.

I introduced Tara last year at the NADeFA conference and did my best to explain her project and the benefits it would have for our industry. Tara works with Kurt Vercauteren, Kurt has also spoke at our NADeFA conference and has done several projects that are beneficial to our industry. I apologize for not having the time to address everyone's concerns or questions, but would like to state that I do support this project and thought Tara was very well received by those that took the time to talk to her in person. If anyone needs more specific answer please give me a call or email.

As for the case of illegal deer movement. We have nothing to hide, the case in South Carolina was in all the media and is no secret. The industry does not support this kind of activity and I would recommend that if DSJM has information to prove otherwise, that they would contact their local DNR or Dept of Ag and report it.

Shawn Schafer
Executive Director
North American Deer Farmers Association

[Shawn Schafer]

Tara

We are approaching the time of year, when the bucks will be dropping their antlers and the producers will be working and testing their herds. If you can get me an update explaining your project and what you need for samples and where to send them, I will run it in the NADeFA newsletter to serve as a reminder for everyone that talked to you last spring.

Merry Christmas

Shawn

[TrubyUSDA]

Thanks Shawn, I'll send you an e-mail with the details.