CWD Found in VA

[Scott Heinrich]

WINCHESTER, Va. (AP) -- State game department officials say chronic wasting disease has been found for the first time in a Virginia white-tailed deer.

The department says a hunter in Frederick County killed the affected deer this month, less than a mile from where the disease was found several years ago in West Virginia.

Virginia joins 17 states and Canadian provinces where the illness has been found.

Chronic wasting disease affects the brains and nervous systems of deer and elk.

Since 2001, the department has tested more than 5,000 deer, but the results had shown that the disease had not been crossing state lines.

---

Information from: The Virginian-Pilot, http://www.pilotonline.com

[Deerchaser]

Glad it wasn't on a farm. The b/s would really get hyped.

[IndependenceRanch]

If you build it they will come.

In the case of illness, any illness. If you look for it you will find it. I just spoke the other day with the Dept of Ag vet. He more or less told me the best advice he can give other states is just don't look for it, then you won't find it. He believes that it (CWD) can and does just spontaneously occur and does do so everywhere.

[Tim Condict]

There are no deer farms in Va. Maybe those elk Autry been complaining about from Ky. By the way you any kin to Gene Autry. Only problem if they don't look in these states is deer farmers will be the only ones that have it.
Tim

[Myersdeerfarm]

was wondering if anyone else seen or herd of the study that dr. James krull did on cwd. It was on t.v. here not to long ago. I believe that he said the wild elk and deer heard in colorado has had cwd for I want to say 40 years? Not 100% on that. He also said that only 5% of the infected animals will die from it. I can't remember all the details but none the less it was interesting and wanted to know more about it.

[Autry]

http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.timeline

CHRONOLOGY OF SIGNIFICANT EVENTS IN THE HISTORY OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE.

Year Event
1967 CWD was first identified as a clinical disease in captive mule deer at the Colorado Division of Wildlife Foothills Wildlife Research Facility in Fort Collins, Colorado.
1978 CWD was officially classified as a Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE). TSE?s include scrapie in sheep and goats, Mad Cow disease in cattle, and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in humans.
1979 CWD was first recognized in captive mule deer and black-tailed deer at the Wyoming Fish and Game Department?s Sybille wildlife research facility.

CWD was diagnosed in captive elk for the first time.
1981 The Colorado Division of Wildlife identified CWD in a wild elk, marking the first documented case of CWD in a wild cervid.
1985 The Colorado Division of Wildlife confirmed the presence of CWD in a wild mule deer for the first time.

The Colorado Division of Wildlife attempted to eliminate CWD from the Fort Collins Foothills Wildlife Research Facility by treating the soil with chlorine, removing the treated soil, and applying an additional chlorine treatment before letting the facility remain vacant for more than a year. The effort was unsuccessful.

The Wyoming Fish and Game Department identified CWD in a wild mule deer, marking the state?s first case of CWD in a wild cervid.
1996 CWD was found for the first time outside of the Colorado/Wyoming CWD ?endemic zone? in a captive elk farm in Saskatchewan.
1997 CWD is identified on several captive elk facilities in South Dakota, marking the first documented cases of CWD in the state.
1999 The Nebraska Game and Parks Commission discovered CWD in a wild mule deer, the state?s first documented case of the disease.
2000 CWD was found in a Saskatchewan mule deer, marking the first time the disease was found in the province?s wild cervids.
2001 The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources detected CWD in wild white-tailed deer, the state?s first documented case of CWD.

South Dakota discovered CWD in wild white-tailed deer for the first time.

Nebraska discovered CWD in a captive white-tailed deer facility for the first time
2002 The New Mexico Department of Game and Fish discovered CWD in a mule deer near White Sands Missile Range. This is the first case of CWD in the state of New Mexico.

The Minnesota Board of Animal Health confirmed the presence of CWD in a captive elk, the state?s first documented case of the disease.

The 1st International CWD Symposium was held in Denver, Colorado.

The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources detected CWD in a captive white-tailed deer, the state?s first documented case of CWD in captive cervids.

Saskatchewan detected CWD in a mule deer outside of the province?s previously delineated CWD containment area.

CWD is detected in a captive elk facility in Oklahoma, marking the first time the disease was found in the state.

The Illinois Department of Natural Resources discovered CWD in a wild white-tailed deer, the state?s first documented case of CWD.

The South Dakota Department of Game, Fish and Parks discovered CWD in wild elk from the Wind Cave National Park. This documented the first case of CWD found in the state?s wild elk populations.

The first case of CWD in Alberta was found at a white-tailed deer farm near Edmonton.

Wyoming confirmed the first case of CWD in a mule deer west of the Continental Divide.


2003 The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources detected CWD in a wild mule deer, marking the state?s first case of CWD.

A dot blot ELISA test for CWD, developed by VMRD, Inc., was licensed for CWD testing.

United States Department of Agriculture licensed a CWD dot plot (ELISA) test developed by VMRD, Inc. The test analyzes retropharyngeal lymph node samples and has a turnaround time of approximately 24 hours.

U.S. Senator Wayne Allard (R-CO) introduced a comprehensive bi-partisan bill targeted at coordinating and increasing federal response to CWD management.

Rep. Ron Kind (D-WI) introduced two bills created to assist states in combating the spread of CWD; the National Chronic Wasting Disease Task Force Establishment Act and the Chronic Wasting Disease Research, Monitoring, and Education Enhancement Act.

The United States Department of Agriculture approved a second-generation CWD test developed by Bio-Rad Laboratories, Inc.

Congress approved a bill that includes $4.2 million to expand research on CWD in wild deer and elk populations.


2004 Agriculture Secretary Ann M. Veneman and Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson announced creation of a federal interagency working group to identify gaps in scientific knowledge about abnormal prion proteins and promote coordination of prion research projects by federal agencies.

CWD was set as a national priority for piloting a Wildlife Disease Action Plan by the Canadian Councils of Resource Ministers.

The Wyoming Game and Fish Department discovered the presence of CWD for the first time on the east slope of the Snowy Range Mountains in the north-central part of the state.

The Nebraska Game and Parks Commission confirmed a case of CWD in a white-tailed deer near the town of Grand Island. This is approximately 250 miles east of the Panhandle where all previous cases of CWD had been documented.
2005 The Colorado Division of Wildlife identified a case of CWD in a mule deer south of Colorado Springs. This is the farthest south on the Front Range that CWD has been detected.

The New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets confirmed the presence of CWD in a captive white-tailed deer, marking the state?s first documented case of CWD.

The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation discovered CWD in a wild white-tailed deer from Oneida County. This documented the first case of CWD found in the state?s wild deer populations.

The 2nd International CWD Symposium was held in Madison, Wisconsin.

The first documented case of CWD in West Virginia is identified in a wild white-tailed deer.

The Colorado Division of Wildlife confirmed the first documented case of CWD in a wild moose.

Alberta discovered a case of CWD in a wild mule deer, marking the first time CWD was found in the province?s wild cervids.

The New Mexico Department of Fish and Game discovered CWD in two wild elk from the Sacramento Mountains, documenting the first cases of CWD found in the state?s wild elk populations.
2006 Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks discovered CWD in a white-tailed deer from Cheyenne County. This is the first time CWD was found in the state.

Researchers at the University of Kentucky found that CWD prions are present in the leg muscles of infected deer.

The Minnesota Board of Animal Health confirmed that a captive white-tailed deer from Lac Qui Parle County tested positive for CWD. This is the state?s first case of CWD.

University of Wisconsin-Madison researchers discovered that infectious prions adhere to specific soil minerals where they remain infective.

The New Mexico Game and Fish Department identified CWD in a mule deer on the Stallion site of White Sands Missile Range, 75 miles further north of the state?s northernmost infection area.

Colorado State University researchers found that infectious prions are capable of transmitting CWD through saliva and blood.

The Colorado Division of Wildlife reported finding two additional moose with CWD in the northern part of the state.
2007 The first white-tailed deer to test positive for CWD in Alberta was identified by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources published an e-book addressing various modeling approaches to describe the spatial epidemiology of CWD.

Research from the University of Wisconsin-Madison revealed that the infectivity of prions significantly increases when they are bound to certain soil minerals.
2008 The first cases of CWD in Saskatchewan?s wild elk population are found in the province's east-central region.

Researchers from the U.S. Department of Agriculture?s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service and Colorado State University developed a new pre-mortem CWD test for elk.

The Michigan Department of Natural Resources detected CWD in a captive white-tailed deer from Kent County. This is state?s first documented case of CWD.

The Wyoming Game and Fish Department discovered CWD in a wild moose. This is the first time a moose infected with CWD is found outside of Colorado.

Elk meat sold at a Longmont, Colorado farmers market was found to come from a captive elk infected with CWD.


2010 The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (VDGIF) received laboratory confirmation on January 19, 2010, that a white-tailed deer tested positive for chronic wasting disease.
Click these links for more information

CWD Video

FAQ

Overview

CWD Timeline

Map

Magazine Articles



© Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance

Web site development by Pyron Technologies, Inc.

[Autry]

Tim,

In regard to your question about being kin to Gene Autry, the answer is yes.

Gene's Great Grand Father was a brother to my Great, Great Grand Father

[Myersdeerfarm]

thanks for the info.

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

CWD is one of the biggest boondoggles in government spending. WI spent I think it was like 13 or maybe 31 million on eradicating it. What a joke. Most bucks in the wild will be shot before they could even show any symptoms since most deer taken are 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 years of age. In WI - the eradication zone now has more deer than it has ever had. The rest of the state with no CWD has the lowest number of deer in many years. So what sort of conclusion can we draw from this - if you ever took a logic class the conclusion would have to be that CWD increases the wild herd. Can you imagine that written in any article????

[acutting]

I'm no scientist but I'd say CWD has been around for a very long time. It was just never realized until someone went poking around. I'd also have to guess that disease has to do with very high populations of animals from the reports I have read. Has anyone shown that CWD actually causes any problems with wildlife outside of the host? And even at that CWD is not fatal 100% of the time (much lower from what I have read). So what is the purpose of spending all of this money to erradicate it? Just my thoughts

[Tim Condict]

David,
I guess now the question is can you sing. Wild Rivers---- Very obvious to you and I that CWD causes Whitetail Deer to have a higher conception rate, be a more intelligent animal (displayed by their ability to avoid hunters therefore increasing their numbers), live longer, and taste better(I made that one up). Any person with common sense would wonder how all the lives of deer farmers across the country, good , honest hard working people, were disrupted and destroyed by so called pro's (thats what they call each other) in search of money or recognition. Maybe they will get the recognition they deserve, and I hope I am there to see it. ---Acutting---- I don't know if CWD is always fatal(I don't think so) but the test sure is.

[Jack]

If you build it they will come.

In the case of illness, any illness. If you look for it you will find it. I just spoke the other day with the Dept of Ag vet. He more or less told me the best advice he can give other states is just don't look for it, then you won't find it. He believes that it (CWD) can and does just spontaneously occur and does do so everywhere.

I feel like many of you and believe the disease has been here infecting deer for as long as there have been deer on this earth. Now that the experts have started to look for the disease they will find it. I also believe CWD is spontaneous and this scares me. There seems to be many cases of CWD pop up and the media and disease agencies will say something like and there wasn't a game farm anywhere near the positive CWD animal. If this is the case it is just a matter of time and testing till one is found on our farms and we become the big looser in this game of russian rulet.

The agencies are milking this for all it is worth. It all means more money to the agencies and more jobs. Right or wrong they are in control at this time.

We as an industry will just have to fight it the best we can and hope reasonable minds will prevail.

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

I too believe it has always been here and someone just decided to start looking for it. How else can you explain the widespread findings - even in New Mexico - where they can't point at deer farmers. They never considered the fact either that deer farmers aren't bringing in deer from those areas out west where CWD has been around for over half a century. We are just an easy target. On the one hand I'm glad they are randomly testing the wild herd or like someone said, the only place they would ever find it is on a deer farm. There are probably many other diseases out there that no one is testing for that kill deer as well.

Andrew - why did they try to eradicate it - it was the hype and hysteria. It was a doomed effort from the start and millions of dollars were thrown away on it. You can never eradicate a disease in the wild - duh! Just shows how common sense went out the window, but then, government has never been known for common sense. Also Andrew - Gary will be getting back to you soon on that issue you discussed. We've just been catching up since he got home.

[Autry]

David,
I guess now the question is can you sing.

Tim, I can honestly say that you would be truly amazed if you heard me sing. :cool:

You would probably be wondering what I did with the money that Mom gave me for singing lessons. :)

[Autry]

More deer test positive for CWD

By John McCoy

January 23, 2010

West Virginia wildlife officials say they're "not pleased, but not surprised" to learn that 16 additional Hampshire County deer have tested positive for chronic wasting disease.

The infected whitetails were among 1,091 killed during the Hampshire County's 2009 buck-hunting season. Division of Natural Resources officials set up special game-checking stations to take tissue samples from hunter-killed deer and have them tested.

The 16 CWD-positive results were the most discovered in a single batch since sampling began in 2005. Overall, 2 1/2 times as many infected deer turned up in 2009 than were discovered in 2008. Paul Johansen, the DNR's assistant wildlife chief, called the findings "unwelcome."

"It's definitely something we didn't want to see," he said.

Eight previous sampling efforts averaged fewer than six infected animals. The highest previous total was 11 CWD-positive whitetails, collected by teams of DNR sharpshooters in 2008.

Johansen said the most troubling information that came from last fall's sampling effort was that three of the deer were killed outside the DNR's "CWD Containment Zone," the area of Hampshire County north of U.S. 50 where hunters may not feed or bait deer and must specially prepare whitetail carcasses before transporting them outside the county.

"This wasn't the first time we've had deer test positive outside the containment zone," Johansen said. "But this past season we had three. That does give us pause; we're certainly considering the option of expanding the containment zone."

He added that "the issue will certainly be discussed" when DNR biologists meet later this month to fine-tune the agency's game-management plans for 2010. "We'll consider the data, and from those data we'll make our recommendations. Nothing is decided yet."

Johansen said the DNR has "thrown everything but the kitchen sink" at the Hampshire County CWD outbreak, but the disease has continued its slow spread despite the effort.

"I'm confident, based on the current level of knowledge [about the disease], that we're taking the proper courses of action," he said. "As more knowledge comes in, we'll fine-tune our strategies."

If biologists recommend to expand the containment zone or to impose further restrictions on carcass handling or transport, DNR Director Frank Jezioro will decide whether to implement those changes.

"The decision lies with the director," Johansen said. "He has the legal authority. All we [biologists] can do is to make recommendations."

http://wvgazette.com/Outdoors/201001230525

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Here's what we get in an email

CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE, CERVID - USA: (WEST VIRGINIA) 2009
************************************************** *********
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: Sat 16 Jan 2009
Source: West Virginia Metro News [edited]
<http://www.wvmetronews.com/outdoors.cfm?func=displayfullstory&storyid=34690>


16 new CWD cases found in Hampshire County
------------------------------------------
The slow growth and spread of chronic wasting disease [CWD] continues in
West Virginia. DNR [Division of Natural Resources] Biologists report 16
deer killed by hunters in the 2009 deer season tested positive for the
presence of CWD. The DNR pulled those positives from 1091 deer killed by
hunters in Hampshire at local checking stations during the season.

"It's not the greatest news and certainly wasn't the Christmas present I
was hoping to open, but you know when you're dealing with CWD and lots of
unknowns associated with it, having a result with 16 positives was not
necessarily unexpected at all," said Paul Johansen, chief of the DNR's Game
Management on West Virginia Outdoors.

The 16 infected whitetails included one 4.5 year old doe, a 2.5 year old
doe, one 1.5 year old buck, ten 2.5 year old bucks, and three 3.5 year old
bucks.

The DNR discovered chronic wasting disease in 2005 in a road killed deer
near the community of Slanesville. Since that time a containment zone was
established north of Route 50 in Hampshire County with special restrictions
on hunting and constant monitoring. This year's [2009] count included
13-infected deer within that zone and 2 from outside the border, but still
within Hampshire County.

"This is not the 1st time we've detected a positive outside that
containment zone," said Johansen. "We're going to have to take a look at
that containment zone and see if it should be expanded."

CWD is an incredibly slow disease. Although deer may be infected, they show
no signs of the illness until in the very last stages when they become
emaciated and disoriented. Otherwise, infected deer show no signs they are
carrying the virus without testing of the brain or spinal tissue.
Researchers conclude feeding or baiting deer is one of the fastest ways to
spread the virus with nose-to-nose contact. Restrictions have been placed
on feeding and baiting deer in the containment area.

"Despite our agency's best efforts, we continue to struggle with CWD in
Hampshire County," said DNR director Frank Jezioro. "I am particularly
concerned that some individuals are not complying with regulations
prohibiting the feeding and baiting of deer within the Hampshire County CWD
Containment Area."

"In certain areas of the containment zone we have information to indicate
there is some baiting and feeding activity that's going on," said Johansen.
"That concerns us as we try to grapple with this disease." The agency plans
to renew efforts to engage the public's help in controlling the spread and
compliance with restrictions enacted to slow the spread. Those efforts will
include additional law enforcement activities if needed.

"As we strive to meet this wildlife disease challenge and implement
appropriate management strategies, the continued support and involvement of
landowners and hunters will be essential," Jezioro said. "The WVDNR remains
committed to keeping the public informed and involved in these wildlife
disease management actions as we go forward."

The CWD Management Strategy to this point includes the following
restrictions in Hampshire County:
- implemented CWD testing efforts designed to determine the prevalence and
distribution of the disease;
- established antlerless deer hunting regulations designed to increase
hunter opportunity to harvest female deer, adjust deer populations to
desired levels, and reduce the risk of spreading the disease from deer to
deer;
- established deer carcass transport restrictions designed to lower the
risk of moving the disease to other locations;
- established regulations designed to prohibit the feeding and baiting of
deer within the affected area and reduce the risk of spreading the disease
from deer to deer.

Hunters concerned about consumption of venison from infected animals are
advised to use their own judgment. Researchers and DNR biologist say
there's no known instance of CWD affecting humans.

[byline: Chris Lawrence]

--
communicated by:
HealthMap Alerts via ProMED-mail
<promed@promedmail.org>

[As hunting seasons across the United States draw to a close, we are likely
to see several reports indicating a slow spread in some states as the
surveillance of hunter-killed animals become tested, tabulated, and
reported. It is important to remember that CWD has not been shown to have
transmissibility to humans. - Mod.TG

West Virginia can be located on the HealthMap/ProMED-mail interactive map
at <http://healthmap.org/r/012T>. Hampshire County can be seen on the map
at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_County,_West_Virginia>. -
Sr.Tech.Ed.MJ]

[see also:
2009
---
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (04): (WV) 20090601.2041
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA: (WV) 20090101.0004
2008
---
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (09): (WV) 20081223.4039
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (04): (WV) 20080509.1580

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE, CERVID - USA (02): (VIRGINIA)
************************************************** ****
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: 21 Jan 2010
Source: Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries news release [edited]
<http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/news/release.asp?id=246>


Chronic wasting disease found in white-tailed deer in Virginia
--------------------------------------------------------------
The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries (VDGIF) received
laboratory confirmation on 19 Jan 2010, that a white-tailed deer (WTD) had
tested positive for chronic wasting disease (CWD). This is the 1st
confirmed case of CWD in Virginia. The deer was killed by a hunter in
Frederick County less than one mile from the West Virginia line. With this
case, Virginia now joins 17 other states and Canadian provinces with CWD, 5
of which are east of the Mississippi River.

"This was not unexpected," stated VDGIF executive director Bob Duncan. "Our
wildlife professionals have been preparing for this for some time. The
surveillance efforts have been critical and we appreciate the hunters,
check station operators, and other cooperators who have supported our efforts."

CWD is a disease of deer and has not been found to be transmitted to humans
or other animals. To learn more about CWD in Virginia and about the
agency's CWD Response Plan visit <http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/cwd>.

This is the 1st positive test sample out of nearly 5000 deer tested in the
Commonwealth since 2001. VDGIF has been sampling hunter-killed and
road-killed deer from the Active Surveillance Area in western Frederick and
Shenandoah counties since 2005, when CWD was 1st detected near Slanesville,
West Virginia, within 10 miles of the state line. Between 2005 and 2009,
CWD has been detected in 62 deer in Hampshire County, West Virginia, out of
nearly 10 000 total deer sampled during that time. Several have been found
within 5 miles of the Virginia line.

Agency officials from West Virginia Division of Natural Resources (WVDNR)
and VDGIF continue to share information and coordinate their responses. For
more information on CWD in West Virginia please see the WVDNR website at
<http://www.wvdnr.org/>. VDGIF is also working in consultation with the US
Department of Agriculture and the Virginia Department of Agriculture and
Consumer Services.

--
communicated by:
Terry S Singeltary Sr
<flounder9@verizon.net>
and HealthMap Alerts via
ProMED-mail <promed@promedmail.org>


[Chronic wasting disease is a member of the transmissible spongiform
encephalopathy family and is one of the few found in North America. It is
believed to be caused by a prion, not a virus , bacterium, or virion. The
exact mechanism of action may be undefined. There are many worthwhile
research papers on the subject. This is a neurological disease that causes
the animal to become thin, weak, stagger, stumble, and eventually die.
Diagnosis is confirmed through testing a portion of the brain stem.

While most white-tailed deer have a home range of about 1 to 1.5 miles in
diameter, they can stray farther and easily cross state boundaries. - Mod.TG

The interactive HealthMap/ProMED map for Virginia is available at
<http://healthmap.org/r/00tK>. - CopyEd.EJP]


[see also:
Chronic wasting disease, cervid - USA: (WV) 2009 20100120.0224
2009
---
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (10): (WY) 20091112.3925
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (09): (WY) 20091106.3841
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (08): (MN) depopulation 20091031.3770
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (07): (WY) 20091015.3548
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (06): (MN) culling 20090923.3344
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (05): disease spread 20090911.3198
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA (04): (WV) 20090601.2041
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - Canada: (SK) 20090417.1462
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA: (AZ) conf. absence 20090416.1447
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - Canada: (AB) 20090327.1192
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - Canada: (AB) 20090131.0444
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA: (MN) 20090131.0443
Chronic wasting disease, cervids - USA: (WV) 20090101.0004]

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

We get updates on TB also.
Unfortunately not EHD and Blue Tongue which seems to kill more deer.
If anyone is interested I could email or post them.
I normally don't post it... as not to add fuel to any fake fire...but you can pull some interesting things out of them!

[Scott Heinrich]

Send them to me at sssdeer@bellsouth.net

[Antler333]

As Autry has shown in the CWD Alliance timeline. CWD, as it is current know, has been around for over 40 years.

While there certainly could be spontaneous CWD, just like there is spontaneous CJD in humans, the presence of that time line suggests, but does not confirm, that CWD in its current form CAN be transmitted as well.

Unfortunately, the current data suggests that the form of CWD found in all these new areas "appears" to be the same or a similar strain to that found in Colorado originally, and since Co State University and the CO Div of Wildlife shipped live animals and diseased tissue to several places around the country, many of those occurances can be explained by sloppy govt handling of infected animals or tissues. Certainly WI can be explained that way.

Also, since wild shot carcasses have been harvested from NE Colorado for decades and certainly some of those heads and bones and maybe guts and things have ended up dumped around the country, then CWD may have been planted in literally hundreds of areas. If those carcasses were postive for CWD, then that area of any state could be a point source for CWD. the NY occurances seem to have come from a taxidemist that had worked on CO shot animals. INsect transmisson can explain the New Mexico occurances.

Now, is CWD always fatal. Well, YES if you consider that to test a brain you have to kill the animal! But is it fatal if infected, I am not so sure. ONLY if the disease agent reaches the nervous system and hence the brain, is it fatal. I personally beleive that you can surpress the disease with antibiotics, and in fact some animals are seemingly immune to it. (studies of genetic L vs M type elk, for example). If animals can be immune and if antibiotics suppress the disease, then this worrisome prion theory is potentially BUNK! The animals seem to react to it the same way they do to other diseases, just they are more diffiult to diagnose.

CWD has no effect on any other wildlife other than the Deer species. Scrapie, also a TSE disease can affect sheep and goats both wild and domestic. BSE so far has been found in beef and I beleive a musk ox or another kind of bovine. Id have to check on that one.

the worry is (hence the eratification efforts) is that it is a cousin of Mad Cow disease which caused a deaded brain disease in humans (about 200 people out of what? 100 million that had eaten the meat of ~100,000 infect beefs). Not exactly a major disease, JUST a deadful one.

As our current chief of staff at the Whitehouse has said. You never want to let a good crisis go to waste. FREE MONEY FOR ALL GOVT AGENCIES that work on it!:(

[TrubyUSDA]

As Autry has shown in the CWD Alliance timeline. CWD, as it is current know, has been around for over 40 years.

While there certainly could be spontaneous CWD, just like there is spontaneous CJD in humans, the presence of that time line suggests, but does not confirm, that CWD in its current form CAN be transmitted as well.

Unfortunately, the current data suggests that the form of CWD found in all these new areas "appears" to be the same or a similar strain to that found in Colorado originally, and since Co State University and the CO Div of Wildlife shipped live animals and diseased tissue to several places around the country, many of those occurances can be explained by sloppy govt handling of infected animals or tissues. Certainly WI can be explained that way.

Also, since wild shot carcasses have been harvested from NE Colorado for decades and certainly some of those heads and bones and maybe guts and things have ended up dumped around the country, then CWD may have been planted in literally hundreds of areas. If those carcasses were postive for CWD, then that area of any state could be a point source for CWD. the NY occurances seem to have come from a taxidemist that had worked on CO shot animals. INsect transmisson can explain the New Mexico occurances.

Now, is CWD always fatal. Well, YES if you consider that to test a brain you have to kill the animal! But is it fatal if infected, I am not so sure. ONLY if the disease agent reaches the nervous system and hence the brain, is it fatal. I personally beleive that you can surpress the disease with antibiotics, and in fact some animals are seemingly immune to it. (studies of genetic L vs M type elk, for example). If animals can be immune and if antibiotics suppress the disease, then this worrisome prion theory is potentially BUNK! The animals seem to react to it the same way they do to other diseases, just they are more diffiult to diagnose.

CWD has no effect on any other wildlife other than the Deer species. Scrapie, also a TSE disease can affect sheep and goats both wild and domestic. BSE so far has been found in beef and I beleive a musk ox or another kind of bovine. Id have to check on that one.

the worry is (hence the eratification efforts) is that it is a cousin of Mad Cow disease which caused a deaded brain disease in humans (about 200 people out of what? 100 million that had eaten the meat of ~100,000 infect beefs). Not exactly a major disease, JUST a deadful one.

As our current chief of staff at the Whitehouse has said. You never want to let a good crisis go to waste. FREE MONEY FOR ALL GOVT AGENCIES that work on it!:(


Hello all, just thought I'd toss in my two cents worth since I work with CWD.
As far as we know CWD is fatal 100% of the time- the disease can sometimes be slowed with antibiotics but this is because most deaths that are attributed to CWD are, in fact, caused by secondary infections (usually aspiration pneumonia). If the disease is allowed to progress, even with plenty of antibiotics, it will eventually cause the death of the animal as the nervous system becomes more and more damaged- we have yet to see an animal which tested positive and did not eventually die of CWD or related complications. It is possible that, at some time in the future, there may be some way to treat CWD but for now there are no viable treatment options (but we're working on a few). We do have live animal tests for both deer and elk so the test is no longer fatal. As for the genetic immunity, the ML vs MM genotype in elk is thought to have some effect on the disease but it does not give them immunity. They may be somewhat more resistant but they are not completely immune (I've personally observed an elk of the resistant genotype die from CWD). I do agree that CWD has probably been around a lot longer than we've known about it and that the only reason it seems to be spreading is that we know where to look for it now.

[Scott Heinrich]

Truby,
If we have a live animal test, why doesn't the USDA recognize it as a method to ensure a herd of captive deer are CWD free? Is it possible that this test is as accurate as the TB screening test? Enlighten us on this live test.

[TrubyUSDA]

Scott,
There is a tonsillar biopsy test for deer and a rectal biopsy test for elk. The tests appear to be nearly as accurate as post-mortem testing. As of yet they have not been approved as "official" tests by the USDA but both are being used in research and we are continuing to evaluate them at every opportunity. Hopefully, they will be approved sometime soon. We are also working on several other detection methods which might make collecting samples significantly easier and more user-friendly but those are still in the very early testing and development stages whereas the the tonsil/rectal biopsies have been pretty much validated.

[SJames]

Trudy,

I’ve sat by quietly long enough, nothing personal but………….

IT ALWAYS SEEMS THAT WHEN WE DEAL WITH CWD, TRUE STATISTICS ARE THROWN OUT THE WINDOW!

Why is it that when these positive reports come out, they never include the clinical symptoms of the animal? Disease management 101 will tell you that the clinical symptoms of the animal are always vital in determining if the animal was truly inflicted by some ailment. Why are the majority of positive CWD cases from perfectly healthy animals? Was this latest positive buck healthy? (I suspect it was a hunter harvest and he was). When these isolated cases occur on healthy animals with all other testing showing no signs, I am immediately concerned and suspect for the procedures and methods used. I am also very suspect of the statement that the disease is always fatal or that a positive test indicates an active disease. I hope a second lab was used (I think that this is now the standard protocol).

So I’ll ask you or anyone for that matter:
(nobody has ever been able to answer the following question).

Outside of any research facilities (we know these places are not held to the highest ethical standards (results mean money!)). Out of all the positives found in the wild, what percentage of them came from hunter harvested perfectly healthy animals?

With those numbers, it would be fairly easy to predict by good solid statistics, if the disease would be considered fatal! A good percentage of the positives should be from animals that look like they are dying. That’s just common sense!

BUT THAT IS GOOD SCIENCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO RECEIVE THE FUNDING DON”T WANT TO FIND THAT OUT! …..SO THEY IGNORE IT

Here is another statement I hear that is really based on VERY POOR SCIENCE!

“We are fairly certain CWD can be transmitted from animal to animal”

THAT’S TOTAL BULLCRAP! No one has ever proved that. In EVERY test case they have not ruled out that CWD can be deposited in the soil and then picked up again by another animal. That is certainly not animal to animal transmission! But they call it that!

In fact, I think if we wanted to it would be fairly easy to prove that it is not transmissible animal to animal, at least not very easily and at least not on a truck! The numbers are out there waiting for somebody to look at them.

In Missouri we have brought in thousands of deer and elk for the last 30 years from all over the US including infected areas. They have gone through sale barns and been dispersed to hunting preserves and breeder farms all over the state. I’m willing to bet (And prove statistically) that if it could be brought in on a truck and transmitted animal to animal, Missouri would have it. If CWD was serious, it would have been all over long before anyone started squawking about it. Guess what? We have tested extensively, continue to test and are CWD free. In every preserve, in the wild, and in all the game farms…Nothing…Zero.! If CWD is transmissible animal to animal that’s almost statistically impossible!

I image that if CWD went away or was put into the perspective it should be which is an insignificant disease that has NO AFFECT on ANY wild population of cervids, that there would be a tremendous cut in research funding, people would be out of certain "CWD" jobs, and many people would look really bad!!!

DNR’ and Wildlife research agencies have to justify their existence and secure funding. And they need people to think they are “Saving our Wildlife”.

Thus, we need a few positives now and then.......and a few articles to spread the lies....

If we turn over enough rocks, we find things......Even if they've been in front of our noses for a long time.

What happened to science based on evidence backed by facts and statistics? Since when are conclusions based on hunches and personal agendas? And then stated to the public as fact?

Does Theory no longer have to be proven to be accepted?

I certainly hope our medical research isn’t as sorry as our CWD research has been.

When we all look back at the way CWD was handled this will rate as one of the biggest blunders in the history of wildlife management.

I think we can compare it to mid-evil times when a person got sick or ill, and the chosen treatment was to BLEED them. They didn’t know why people were sick but they were speculating that the sickness would leave the body through this bleeding. Of course, they killed most of the patients! We can certainly kill all the deer and related industrys to get rid of CWD (maybe). That’s one alternative. I prefer not to “bleed” the herd. Science and scientific based research is the answer. But it has to be based on good solid science! I just wish people would wake up and realize it! The biggest fear on the horizon now is the fact that the people authorized to do the research are the same people that screwed this whole thing up. Do you think they are going to use sound scientific methods to prove how badly they acted? I bet not. So get ready to see some very un-scientific research.

Here is an example of very bad research. In Missouri they decided to do RANDOM sampling of the deer herd. So they picked out 10 counties along our northern borders, 10 counties at random, and 10 counties with at least 2 captive deer farms (What happened to random? SPECULATION AGAIN?). Then in each county, they decided to take 200 samples. In our county, Callaway, there are 3 check stations. There are 3 because this is a large county. Random sampling would suggest that you take 1/3 of the samples from each check station. Wrong! They took all the samples from the one check station right next to the hunting preserves in the county (mine). Hmmmmmmm wander what they’d like to find.

We’ll, again I’ve rambled on long enough. I better get out and check my herd. They all look good but you never know. I may just take out a few “fat and sassy” ones just to see. And then I may pull the engine on my tractor to check to see if it has any problems. Its been running great but could throw a rod at any time. My neighbors threw a rod a couple months ago, so mine is bound to do the same. I better pull the engine just in case! :p

Sam
"Man I feel better"

[Droptine]

Nice rant Sam :) I feel better too, just from reading it :D

[Liveoak]

I think Sam pretty much covered my thoughts and feelings on CWD and its "research" too.......

[Scott Heinrich]

Sam,
I need a cigarette after that rant! Nice points!

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Sam,
Very well said. You are dead on the money with your point on " the CWD jobs". Way to much money has been thrown down this bottomless pit. We have bigger and more deadly diseases that need the attention and money put to their use.

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

Right on the money Sam. Like I said, WI is a good example of how the only thing CWD has done so far is increase the deer population in that part of the state. Hmmmmm

[Tim Condict]

Hello Truby,
Welcome back. I have a couple of questions. Why does the government folks get to use these live tests but we cant test all of ours and have a CWD free herd? Now that makes sense to me. Second: How about letting a few deer farmers come out and treat those deer and see if we can cure them. Third: Are any of the deer you guys mess with whitetails. Fourth: Have you heard of any whitetails dying of the disease.
-------Sam-------- The statistics are out there on the amount of animals that were sick when they were expired by overpaid sharpshooters that I bet we could team up and out shoot. 2% of the animals were exibiting clinical symptoms when they were terminated by the special agents in charge of wasting wildlife. This I learned from a man with wings as harps played in the background at USAHA a couple of years ago. It was in the research. Now that all sounds good to smart folks but being a dumb eastern Oklahoma Redneck I just didn't get it, you know, so I stuck my fat hand in the air and proceeded to show my ignorance. In dumb eastern Oklahoma Redneck language which was spoken loudly to be heard over the harps, I asked: Wal whet wuz tha pursentige ov thim thar dear thet testid nagoteeve fer CWD thet hed thim egsact clynacal simptims cumpaired two tha othirs thet, ewe no, hed tha deseese. Well now the music quit and it sounded like i flushed a covey of bobwhites as the angel wings smoked outa there. Of course by now you know the answer was 2%. So the same percentage of negatives had clinical symptoms as the positives. 2%. Now if I hadn't of been there and been so dumb as to have to ask, everyone would have assumed that 2 % were dying of CWD. In reality I don't think any were.
The concern seems a little misplaced. The various departments around the country seem so concerned that none of our deer get out to contaminate the unhealthy stock that they spend many hours and countless dollars inspecting farms and getting GPS readings from your fences to file back in the cannot trust file. Now I ask my ag guy a few times how many deer he had ever heard of that escaped from a deer farm and had gotten run over. Of course he didn't know of any. So I said well have you ever heard of a horse or cow getting out and getting hit by a car. Well yes, he in fact had. So I tell him it seems to me your inspecting the wrong fences. Thousands of people have died from auto cow or horse collisions across this country. Nobody seems to care except for the families of the victims. What would happen if 1 deer related disease killed 1 American. We would face the wrath of God. (or could be big brother) 200 people died of Mad Cow disease and set the world in a panic. Hell thats 1/3 a nights worth in the inner city's across the country from murder. When in fact they could have quit feeding animal parts(brains and eggs) to the Brits for breakfast and quit grinding up body parts to feed back to animals and stoped all the carnage. The problem is we have educated everyone to the point of stupidity. No one in powerful positions seem to be able to think in the simplest of terms. Makes me wanna hold a danged straight pride parade. Go walkin down the street kissing women. Now thats simple and sounds fun too. Yep a straight pride parade right here in Dustin America. No better do it in Vegas so as all the women I kiss won't tell and there's lots of ugly ones here anyway.
Truby-- I do appreciate you being concerned enough to come on here and tell us anything at all. Wish all Fed's were like you. By the way, are you going to Vegas anytime soon? There's a parade gonna go on and I was wanting you to walk with me.(ha ha) Sorry I'm all hoped up on Amoxicillin for my toothache.

[SJames]

Tim,

That is VERY good information to know. You would think that a light would go off in the heads of some of these people that would trigger some sort of intelligent thought process.

It amazes me how they not only reach false conclusions based on guesses and poor, empty science, they also ignore sold facts that would point to conclusions that contradict their very core ideas when it comes to this disease.

When confronted with these facts they quickly change subjects and try to change focus on emotion and again the unknown guessing game.

For example, I’ve sat in our task force meetings and argued on many occasions that the real science tells us that this whole CWD debacle has been a total waste of time and effort and that we should just drop the whole thing. It possesses absolutely no threat. At least not to whitetails. The Federal regulations should simply state. “Don’t worry about CWD”

I told them that if I could trade the threat of CWD for the threat of EHD and Blue Tongue in my preserve and breeding herd, I would do so 100 times over and start sleeping like a baby during the Summer months.

Their response:

“Well, uuuummmm, our whitetail deer herd is a multi-billion dollar industry in Missouri and its our job to protect it”.

When threatened they backup into a protective corner and state a basic idea that has no correlation to the subject or science matter being discussed.

Here is a question for everyone. If we would have allocated and spent the amount of money on EHD/Blue Tongue research that we spent on CWD, how much more would we know about those real killers?

Everything we have done with regards to those diseases has been done by the deer farmers with absolutely no help from the people who are suppose to protect our herds. Its not a "politically" important disease so they don't want to waste any time or money on it.

What a shame that we have been taken for a ride through “NeverNever” land.

I can’t take this anymore. I have to stop typing now or I’ll be here all day…. :mad:

[IndependenceRanch]

TrubyUSDA, I also would like to thank you for coming on here and sharing your thoughts. It is nice to have someone from the gov who isn't afraid to face the questions.
I tend to not even read many of the posts about CWD anymore. The whole issue has become such a joke. However I did read some of the above posts and have to agree with Sam and Tim.
I think the biggest thing I would like to see is put people in charge of the research and such that don't have a person stake in the issue.
And I would like to see actual common sense applied.

You know if us deer farmers and the deer hunters in the wild were seeing deer sick and dropping over from this "disease" it might actually be worth the money, time and hardships to deer growers and hunters. But the fact is this "disease" is not killing deer. I would be willing to bet that more people die each year in the US from complications associated with the common cold, than there are deer dying from CWD. Except if you include complications associated with gunshot wounds to those deer.

[wvdeerman]

Give them Hell SAM !! You took the words right out of my mouth, some of them I didn't even know were in there.

I am from WV. I live on the opposite end of the state from the "infected area". Here are a couple questions that we have about this. What happened to the carcasses of those deer that tested positive? We have all been told that a diseased carcass can threaten an area as much as anything else. Did these hunters take those deer home, butcher the deer and then take the bones and heads up the hollow and dump them out? This only shows the lack-there-of in the attempted control of this disease. We have posed these questions to our lawmakers. Believe me, we have A LOT of people scratching their heads right now.

[Scott Heinrich]

Tim,

I have tears in my eyes after reading your comments. I love it when a fellow "redneck" asks the same questions I ask.

[TrubyUSDA]

Hello Truby,
Welcome back. I have a couple of questions. Why does the government folks get to use these live tests but we cant test all of ours and have a CWD free herd? Now that makes sense to me. Second: How about letting a few deer farmers come out and treat those deer and see if we can cure them. Third: Are any of the deer you guys mess with whitetails. Fourth: Have you heard of any whitetails dying of the disease.

Tim, I really wish I had an answer as to why the live tests aren't approved for everyone's use yet but I don't have a good one. As far as I can tell the hangup is that they want more positive animals to try out the test some more and make sure it works-although the research which says it works has already been published. It doesn't make sense to me that we can't use a tool that we spent money developing (silly me, I thought tools were made to be used and not just to look good on a resume)

Second, I'd be more than willing to let the deer farmers with all the experience come out and treat the deer since I'm pretty sure you guys know what you're doing way better than most researchers (too bad I'm not in charge :)). We have helped an elk rancher treat a few of his animals but, so far anyway, we've had no luck on that front.

Third: We do work with white-tails but the majority of the CWD related work that we've been allowed to do so far has been mostly mule deer and elk. We did do a small study involving species-to-species transmission between white-tails and elk a couple of years ago (not yet published)

Fourth: Yes, there are quite a few cases of white-tailed deer dying of CWD in research situations at least. Most of the cases in farmed or wild animals seem to be from culled or hunter-killed animals which tested positive after they were dead but didn't actually die of the disease.

Let me know when this parade gets organized and I'll be there with bells on ;)

[TrubyUSDA]

I think the biggest thing I would like to see is put people in charge of the research and such that don't have a person stake in the issue.
And I would like to see actual common sense applied.

Independence, I think you hit the nail on the head here. In my opinion, the biggest problem we have is people who can't see the issue clearly due to inflated pride. Research is still, unfortunately, a very competitive field and a lot of people lose site of the bigger picture in a quest to make themselves look better. Don't get me wrong I like to win as much as the next person but when that attitude is applied to research (or any sort of science for that matter) we all end up losing because we can't work together to find a reasonable solution which benefits everyone involved.

[Antler333]

As far as we know CWD is fatal 100% of the time- the disease can sometimes be slowed with antibiotics but this is because most deaths that are attributed to CWD are, in fact, caused by secondary infections (usually aspiration pneumonia). If the disease is allowed to progress, even with plenty of antibiotics, it will eventually cause the death of the animal as the nervous system becomes more and more damaged- we have yet to see an animal which tested positive and did not eventually die of CWD or related complications. It is possible that, at some time in the future, there may be some way to treat CWD but for now there are no viable treatment options (but we're working on a few). We do have live animal tests for both deer and elk so the test is no longer fatal. .

Truby:

Since you work with CWD animals. Here is the rub on the "always fatal" characterization.

The only way you can diagnose CWD is by identifying abnormal prions in brain tissue or in lymph nodes. Well, certainly this is a later stage of disease and if it is found there, the progression is fatal.

BUT where is the CWD agent prior to the lymph or nervous tissue. BEFORE you can detect it, but after infection? CAN IT be intercepted and eliminated PRIOR to infecting the nervous tissue and eventually the Brain? hmmmm, However, Once its gets the nervous system, the deer is toast, but not until.

Other organs including lymph nodes can clear the CWD disease debris (bad prions, PrP) thru cell death and renewal without the animal surcoming to classic disease, BUT ONLU IF IT DOES NOT REACH THE BRAIN. It is a brain disease, a TSE. Only brain cells are not renewable, hence fatal if destroyed. If it does not reach the brain it is not a fatal TSE.

That being said, CWD can be conquered by surpressing or eliminating the agent prior to nervous system infection, hence this is a window to achieve a "CURE". Now when I said the antibiotics surpress the disease, I was NOT talking about secondary symptoms from complications, like pneumonia. I was talking surpression of the TSE agent specifcally. Review Prusiners work on Doxicycline and it affect on bad prion reproduction. Tetracycline derivitives SEEM to slow or stop PrP propagation. Why is that? If certain antibiotics are administed prior to classic disease characteristics, will it stop or slow the disease from reaching and multiplying in lymph and nervous tissue? My inquiring mind wants to know.

Are some animals immune? Although the Ft Collins pens have had 100% fatality from CWD, that is not the norm for the disease. IN the wild, Either its not very transmittable (a high treshold for infection) or there is some form of immunity. Elk MM and LL's are suggestive of different levels of susepceptability, correct? Possiblity due to immune system variation, correct? If the genotype can affect infection rates, is that due to immune system response? IF so, then perhaps an immunity CAN BE attained thru some sort of artifical process, not much different than a vaccine-created immunity.

Lastly, addressing the live animal test. Current tests on rectal lymph, throat lymph are late stage disease indicators,and are not at all suitable for "clean herd" testing. No one should be using these tests as signs of a clean wild or captive herd. They just are not accurate for early disease.

Dispite claims, there is NO gold standard test for finding CWD or any TSE until AFTER it has fully infected the animal. The tests only confirm that the animal is fatal due to brain infection and certaijn destruction and that a certain kind of protein is present....and that protein must be present in sufficient amounts to even be detectable. Not good compared to other kinds of disease tests.

[Antler333]

SAM: I am glad you feel better. A good rant can refresh the soul......

I can offer a couple of tid bits.

CWD is a very minor disease, as are TSE's in general. but the research bucks are big, and the bad-er the disease sounds, the more money can be solicited from the public. Mad cow has been worth billions, easily $200 to $400 million per human CASE or more!

I would also agree that more information should be included with the positive data, but that would have to be provided by the hunter which may not be a particularly accurate source of info.

Now you have asked, "....So I’ll ask you or anyone for that matter:
(nobody has ever been able to answer the following question).
.... Out of all the positives found in the wild, what percentage of them came from hunter harvested perfectly healthy animals?

I would wager that MOST of them (+66%) (of the positives) are healthy looking, yet test positive. Here is why. ( I will ignor sampling and testing errors)

IN general terms, the disease takes 3 years from infection to death. The disease is detectable after say 18 to 24 months (50% to 66% of the disease time span). THEREFORE, one can conclude that upwards of over 50% of the infected animals are UNDETECTABLE and have NO SYMPTOMS, hence are healthy-looking, and dont test postive! So nobody even knows they have CWD.

On the remainder (which are postive), they have no obvious symptoms until the last 6 months or so when they start to waste away. Of the positives then, say 6 months out of 18 months (33%) or 6 out of 12 month (50%) show symptoms. Conversely 50% to 66% show NO outward symptoms, yet test positive.

Generalizing then, 33% out of 50% (of the tested postives) (or 16.5%) have symptoms and hence 83.5% of the infected animals have NO SYMPTOMS. Hard to understand, but that is the way it is.



Now Sam your rant on the transmissiblity of CWD is correct. It aint very transmissible in casual situations. Prolonged exposure to a diseased animal or the environs of one, is necessary.

Now whether it can pass nose to nose is still undeterminable since feces and debris are always present at the same time. It is known that a carasses can infect, and that close pen confinment with diseased animal debris (but not infected animals) can pass the disease. that being said, it still could be animal to animal but it is certainly animal debris to animal. In all cases, it takes awhile for the infective agent to take hold of its victim. (this goes back to my prior comment to Truby.


All in all, I subscribe to the philosophy of FOLLOW THE MONEY. When big money is on the line, one must review the "research" to be sure it is not biased for money or idealogy.

[SJames]

Hi Rich,

Some how I had the feeling you would jump in on this thread. I always appreciate your comments and always learn from them. I know you have been "in the trenches" with CWD.

I have another off the wall question that I've been wanting to ask any one or every one who will listen. It seems we always have to do things the hard way when it comes to testing our animals. I always scratch my head at these programs and wander who comes up with these rules. They don't make any sense. I’m probably just an idiot!

Lets say we have a herd of whitetail deer and want to do all the major testing of CWD, TB and Bangs. Now since there is no live test for CWD, we are required to monitor our herds, testing at death. TB and Bangs on the other hand have live tests. But since the powers that be can't agree on basically anything about CWD, most states require a 5 year status to move deer in (if they allow it at all, shame on some of you states!) So really, lack of CWD monitoring status is the most common cause for not being able to move a deer.

With that kept in our minds, lets look at the TB and Bangs programs. We do a whole herd test 2 years in a row to gain accredited status, but then we have to do a whole herd test every 3 years to keep it. That’s a lot of work after 3 years! Is it REALLY needed?

Now think about this. It is VERY easy to do a post mortem TB test. In fact, all slaughters houses require the inspectors to inspect for that. Right now, you can move animals across most borders on a slaughter permit because the testing will be done at the time of slaughter. I also assume you could do a Bangs test at the time of death since death usually involves some loss of blood and it’s a blood test. I’m not really sure if they do it.

So, since we all have to be in a CWD monitoring program I ask you this?

Since they put us through this crap, why can’t we at least use it to our advantage? Why can’t we also test for TB and Bangs at the time of death and keep our accredited status WITHOUT having to re-test every 3 years?. AFTER initial accreditation (with 2 whole herd tests), accreditation could be kept current by “monitoring the herd” through post mortem testing.

Its just an idea, What do you all think (I CERTAINLY don't want to give them any ideas for more testing, this would be give a little to get something back)?

I would guess it would be impossible to ever get put in place anyway. Makes too much sense! It might be put on the same timeline as the “Federal CWD rules” . I remember being told in May of 2001 that those would be out in about 6 months. Here we are 9 years later. When the topic comes up from some federal vet person at our meetings (they change ever couple years), I just interrupt them and rudely say. We don’t want to hear it! We have no confidence in anything you people have to say!

AAAAAHHHH, I’m starting to vent again….gottta go…

[Antler333]

SAm:

Your idea is a reasonable one. The only problem is NOT ENOUGH cervid animals go to slaughter. That IS how beef works, kill a certain statistcal number of beef and that is as good as a whole herd test.

some one would have to determine how many animals from a herd need to be tested to eliminate the risk of a disease and then if that number is slaughtered in one year, the herd would be presumed clean. I support that premise wholehardily

To me that is part of the reason for having a viable meat industry (like on the venison forum section) All my kills are automatic TB tests. Bruce is not tested but could be.

Build up the meat business and whole herd testing can be ligitimately bypassed.

[TrubyUSDA]

That being said, CWD can be conquered by surpressing or eliminating the agent prior to nervous system infection, hence this is a window to achieve a "CURE". Now when I said the antibiotics surpress the disease, I was NOT talking about secondary symptoms from complications, like pneumonia. I was talking surpression of the TSE agent specifcally. Review Prusiners work on Doxicycline and it affect on bad prion reproduction. Tetracycline derivitives SEEM to slow or stop PrP propagation. Why is that? If certain antibiotics are administed prior to classic disease characteristics, will it stop or slow the disease from reaching and multiplying in lymph and nervous tissue? My inquiring mind wants to know.

Are some animals immune? Although the Ft Collins pens have had 100% fatality from CWD, that is not the norm for the disease. IN the wild, Either its not very transmittable (a high treshold for infection) or there is some form of immunity. Elk MM and LL's are suggestive of different levels of susepceptability, correct? Possiblity due to immune system variation, correct? If the genotype can affect infection rates, is that due to immune system response? IF so, then perhaps an immunity CAN BE attained thru some sort of artifical process, not much different than a vaccine-created immunity.

Lastly, addressing the live animal test. Current tests on rectal lymph, throat lymph are late stage disease indicators,and are not at all suitable for "clean herd" testing. No one should be using these tests as signs of a clean wild or captive herd. They just are not accurate for early disease.

Hi Antler333,
Thanks for this post, you made some great points. Prusiner did indeed do some interesting research on doxycycline although it wasn't specific to CWD and the research on tetracycline was also not done on CWD-specific prions (which does beg the question- why haven't we done this with CWD if it looked promising?). I would also like to know if antibiotics could slow or stop the disease progression- what an easy fix that would be and we could all move on to other things.

As for immunity, yes, there is some possibility that immunity could be attained through an artificial process. We actually tested a vaccine for CWD that had shown promise in mice, it didn't work as we had hoped in deer but people are still investigating that possibility. Also, it depends on what you mean by "not very transmissible", Rocky Mountain National Park reported an 11% infection rate in the elk that they collared last year which is a fairly high infection rate for such a slow-moving disease (though that population is admittedly overcrowded which is unquestionably a contributing factor).

The tests available right now are for late-stage disease but could be used in conjunction with the current post-mortem testing in order to remove positive (and possibly infective) animals from a herd so that the amount of infectious material that the animal would contribute to a given area could be limited. I do agree that the tests are not suitable for declaring a herd "clean", but they could be used as a non-lethal monitoring tool. They could also be used to detect and treat positive animals- if a treatment is ever found.

[SJames]

Rocky Mountain National Park reported an 11% infection rate in the elk that they collared last year which is a fairly high infection rate for such a slow-moving disease (though that population is admittedly overcrowded which is unquestionably a contributing factor).

Truby, What is the prediction now for the Rocky Mountain Elk herd? Seems with the wolves and the CWD it will hardly stand a chance of surviving. According to the science, it should be down to less than 1/2 what it used to be by now. How is it doing? I wander how it got so overpopulated in the first place? CWD must have just popped up out of no-where! Otherwise with that infection rate and always being fatal, it should have wiped out the population by now. :p

[Antler333]

Hi Antler333,
Thanks for this post, you made some great points. Prusiner did indeed do some interesting research on doxycycline although it wasn't specific to CWD and the research on tetracycline was also not done on CWD-specific prions (which does beg the question- why haven't we done this with CWD if it looked promising?).

Seems to me, this is basic homework which should have been done years ago. While it looks promising, the implications of this "antibiotic" effect are potentially huge. Whether its variant scrapie (as was tested), CWD or whatever, Why would an antibiotic cause bad Prion production to slow or cease. Prusiner had a weak argument for a chemical effect, but the 800# gorilla is that a tetracycline deritive (being a strong bacteria-stat, i.e it prevents bacteria from reproducing) is supressing a bacterialogical agent.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "not very transmissible", Rocky Mountain National Park reported an 11% infection rate in the elk that they collared last year which is a fairly high infection rate for such a slow-moving disease (though that population is admittedly overcrowded which is unquestionably a contributing factor).

the Rocky Mtn Natl elk herd is effectively an unfenced captive herd that is trapped between a high mtn divide and human civilization of the CO Front Range. They have habituated to humans quite well and are undoubtedly fed by local residents of Estes Park etc. NOw, Could an early exposure to weak CWD create an immunity (see my prior paragraph), or is it really always fatal. This perhaps could explain Sams query. Why is the herd still viable? perhaps it is developing a progressive immunity.

A more perplexing problem is the apparent infection rate on Muleys in the Front RAnge. Way high, approaching, what, a sampled 30%, yet the population is not collapsing. At least I dont think so. IS there a sampling bias? (the optimist?) Or perhaps the epicenter of the disease is Ft Collins and this rate is what can be expected 4o years from now in the sparsely infected areas of the country that allow the disease to progress. (the pessimist). A reasonable explaination for the continuing viability of a herd is that Muleys can be quite prolific. Having say three sets of twins before the disease wastes them away. That can explain a high infection rate AND an expanding herd.

The tests available right now are for late-stage disease but could be used in conjunction with the current post-mortem testing in order to remove positive (and possibly infective) animals from a herd so that the amount of infectious material that the animal would contribute to a given area could be limited. I do agree that the tests are not suitable for declaring a herd "clean", but they could be used as a non-lethal monitoring tool. They could also be used to detect and treat positive animals- if a treatment is ever found.

Hmmm, to that I agree,and offer that if a treatment is found; chances are the testing methods for this disease will be a whole lot better, and hence these are simply interim tests that will be replaced quickly (I hope).

TRUBY, Now to a new offshoot: Ohio State's Dr MA's recent publication of figuring out how to create misfolded bad prions that can cause a TSR-like disease. Have you read this? If so any comments?