Where do you see our Indusrty heading!?

[ddwhitetails]

I thought it would be interesting to see were alot of you feel our Industry is headed. There has been a lot happen in a few years....it almost seems like their are no more possible goals to reach when it gomes to growing large antlers....i think once 500 inchesw is hit that is probably as high as you can go....heck I can't imagine much bigger....poor bucks won't be able to lift their heads off the ground! Anyhow, I feel we do have a solid Industry going here...in todays dat there is more and more property being posted and with corporate America the way it is people don't have the time to hunt like they used to. This is where I feel our Industry will apply and shine! People today want to be able to be wined and dined and then go out and kill a trophy that the can brag about! This I feel is waht will keep us growing.....I just don't see a change coming any time soon! Which is good for us! These are my thoughts what are yours?:)

[Droptine]

Dennis, I think you're spot on. The breeding industry will stay strong through these economic times, imo. Although, the middle to low end genetics are taking a hit right now, the high end stuff has continued to hold it's value. As long as there are people like you mentioned that just want to get there trophies and get back the the shooter market will continue to stay strong as well.

[T.R.O.]

I have to agree with DD and Droptine. I feel the market will peak out once that 500" mark is met. There is a large portion of the industry striving for the non typical look and thats great. Those animals are very unique but, I am a typical man. I am looking ahead and banking on the shooter industry always being available. Once 500" is met I can see people being like, now what? Our deer are larger than elk, now what? My buck is laying out there on his side because he cant hold up his 500" rack. Scores are getting so high that a portion of the industry cant even afford to invest into those genetics. These bucks are truely special but if we can meet that 500" goal I would love to see the 250" CLEAN TYPICAL goal be reached. I think the shooter market is always going to be there with as many people that want to enjoy the outdoors and hunt but dont have the time. People cant afford to be shooting 300 400 or 500" deer. So the typical shooter bucks are going to be the crave in the years to come I believe. I would love to be the man with the 1st 500" non typ but I would be a happier man when Im done if I had the 1st 250" 7x7 or 8x8 without a single sticker. This is my goal and I belive it is just as hard to reach if not harder than its going to be to reach 500. Goodluck to everyone this year and hopefully goals are met and higher goals are set. The deer industry is more exciting than anything else I can think of and I cant wait to see what pops up out of some heads this year!! Goodluck!!

[Droptine]

The deer industry is more exciting than anything else I can think of and I cant wait to see what pops up out of some heads this year!!

that's it! No other industry is this exciting. We've raised cattle all my life and never did we sit around looking forward to see how big a bull would get :) The best part of this business is just loving what you do.

[Rustyblaster]

I have raised beef, chickens, and hogs. I can't say any of them could capture my attention like the whitetail. I find myself staring out the second story window at the deer like a pendulum swinging back and forth in front of me. It may get exponentially worse once I start seeing racks!

[Aaron_CCDR]

T.R.O

agree completely. Your post is a near mirror of my previous post on the old site. Many of us are right on in the same lines of thinking to the "T".

Who will do the clean 250" typical this year? Will it Happen? Will 500" happen this year? There are alot of bucks to watch this year to see if these records can be broke. I don't think it will be me, but this will be an awesome year to follow the growth threads.

[CurtisLloyd]

I think the industry is heading to more selective breeding.. just because we can cross two lines should we, what will the outcome be, does it benefit the species?, as we understand breeding more and more we become the caretakers of the species, although there will be a wall that limits antlers size just by sheer size and weight and the capacity of the deer to survive and thrive with antlers to large for their enviroment.

[Reed68]

I am NOT degrading anybody by saying this. But I saw Big Jake when he had his 344" rack, matter of fact, I sawed him off. Until then he seemed miserable. He couldn't even hold his head staight. I watched the Flee's video this last year, and Rocky would not hold his head up for very long. I breed for frame but love the non-typicals. Sometimes it seems like they cant wait to go through the chute and hear the saw wire. Is this healthy for them???

[Reed68]

I went in to get him with wheel barrow to take in barn to pull semen. He was a LOAD. By the time I sawed him off, my arms were give plum out. Then we put him back, picked up Romeo, then I had to saw him off. I couldn't fell my arms for a hour.

I used Logan this year , but I dont think it stuck????

[ddwhitetails]

I guess we better start breeding them for stronger necks:eek:. No you guys are exactly right I have always felt bad foe some of these big boys who don't seem to have the neck strength to hold up their head gear! Maybe someone will invent a neck brace for the deer so they can support these enormous racks:rolleyes:

[SJames]

I agree with the push for the typical buck. The breeding industry has been breeding for the non-typical and advanced very quickly.

As we start to think about typical deer, even the typical bucks we see on here have some very non-typical bucks in their pedigree. Forked g2's seem to be prevalent. Stickers are almost always the case as the bucks get older. That makes sense since they score more.

On our farm, we breed for both typicals and non-typicals. I like and my hunters like variety. On a fairly typical buck, I don’t mind the forks and stickers. I like score because it pays more. But the clean buck also intrigues me!

But where are we as an industry on the clean typical side? Are we even better than wild deer? Maybe….. Maybe not!

If you want to talk about clean typical deer, what you are really talking about is a deer scored NET Boone and Crocket. That’s a tough score with deductions for differences side to side on every measurement AND deductions for ANY extra points. It takes a REALLY big, clean deer to make 200 NET Boone and Crocket!

Take a deer like Lethal Weapon for example. He grosses 270 2/8 and has a typical SCI score is 242 4/8. But if you netted him out B&C, lets see what happens. He has 22 1/8 difference from side to side and 27-6/8 inches of extras. That means he nets 192 5/8! Almost every buck behind fence will fall below the 200 inch mark when netted B&C. The only bucks I know of in captivity that netted over 200 were in Texas, Robert Williams owned one and I can’t recall who owned the other.

So what I’m saying is that I think 250 net B&C is a LONG way off! But its something that we can breed for!

Just for fun lets see what people think is the highest scoring NET B&C buck out there. If you can provide a gross SCI scoresheet, I can net them out for you. I’d be willing to bet right now that there are none out there that break the Wild Net typical record held by the Milo Hansen Buck. I think its 212 and some change.

Let’s have some fun. Don H, I know you’ve been looking for the biggest one. What have you found? Who has the biggest one?

[WillPenn Whitetails]

Sam,
Great post. I think that you make some very good points that maybe we sometimes forget about in our industry of high scores. A buck with a 200" typical frame is absolutely MASSIVE! I don't know this bucks net score, but I do believe that Bambi Escalade would have to have over a 200" typical frame. He's very clean and scores 242" with just a few inches of splits. Barkley and Cole Young's Hoss scored 291"@3 gross and had 240" of typical mainframe 8x6. Im sure that there are others, but those are two that come to mind.

[Scott Heinrich]

Reed, a battery powered reciprocating saw works great and your arms don't get tired.

[SJames]

Thanks Mike. Hoss would be at 242 Minus (the difference of 46) which is 196 minus the difference from side to side which on an 8X6 is at least 20. So he would net in the 170's.

Escalade would be close to 200. He looks to have about 25-30 inches of extras but is pretty even side to side. I would guess him right around the 200 inch mark NET. Thats just guessing from the picture and video.

[roughcountrywhitetails]

Sam,
How do you think Maxbo Radar or Pretty Boy Floyd would hold up?

[Wooden acres]

Sam you make some VERY good points yet not long ago on the forum someone said 200 inch genetic's were old hat and no longer any good . I guess when we're talking typicals 200 is pretty darn impressive isn't it ? Your right the Hanson buck was 213 5/8 but the Wi buck shot by Jim Jordan was an awesome 206 5/8 with two less points. I would hunt a very long time to have the honor of shooting or even seeing a 10 point buck that could score over 206 inches yet on the forums it's like 200+ genetic's are shunned . I'm thinking if someone consitantly could breed 200 plus typicals you'd be making some very nice cash . Just my opinion .

[SJames]

Pretty Boy Floyd has some non-typical down low and a few kickers. I might score him in Branson. He is one I thought of right off the bat! Mark and Steve won't care! It will be interesting to see! I'll bet he is around 200 net.

I need a couple of pictures or a scoresheet (better) of Maxbo Radar to guess on him.

Wooden, a pen full of "old hats" would be nice pocket change!

[CurtisLloyd]

I think this is what we are talking about gross 217 net 193 ,loses 22 inches from side to side diff,
32

[Aaron_CCDR]

Jed should be real close

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/Aaronhome27/jed.jpg

Maxbo Radar looks good in the picture on Whitetail exchange.

Maximus

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/Aaronhome27/Maximus.jpg

John David

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/Aaronhome27/JohnDavid.jpg



There are still more that we have been experimenting with to get the clean typical look. Would be nice to hit the 250" mark in one of these crosses. I guess the next thing would be to have one pass it down. There is only a handful of the real clean stuff out there. I guess the look is more important than the actual "clean" rack though. Like you said Sam it is nearly impossible to get a 250" rack with no stickers or splits.

[Aaron_CCDR]

Sam,

I agree after looking back through the post it is going to be hard pressed to find many bucks out there to meet or beat the Hanson buck after side to side kicks in. If Jed stays clean this year maybe. Maximus I think might be real close if not over. Maxbo Radar looks to be over on net. The old Pepsi buck would have be close. Redoy Weatherby would have been right there but he had a huge added brow on one side that might have knocked him below 212" but he was real close side to side. There are a few others but they only come close when they are netted out. We have had a few local bucks come close but the next year in come the sticks and splits.

[ddwhitetails]

This is what I like to hear....something to get excited about.......yes it is going to be hard to get a big clean typical to hit that 230 to 250 inch mark....but heck 5 years ago we wouldn't have believed we would have had the non typicals that we have today......I think once we see (and i believe we already have seen it) the focus in the industry move towards typicals we will all be surprised what animals we can produce......I know one thing it sure is going to be a whole lot of fun trying to make that BIG BEAUTIFUL TYPICAL!

[SJames]

I don't believe any of those bucks will make it. If we get close on any, lets get a scoresheet and really find out if the buck makes it. I can't think of more than 1 or 2 and none over 205. I think the Texas breeders are probably ahead of us with this type of deer.

Its funny, people complain that typical genetics don't pay as well at the auctions but I've watched Robert Williams lots bring top money time and time again. And he loves the big clean typicals. But remember that his lines go back several generations with typical breeding. People pay better because they believe they will get typical consistant deer.

I really think whovever produces a big typical line will be rewarded IF they properly market that line.

With all that said, the one thing I HAVE to have in my deer is mass. Its personal but I just love mass! And my hunters love it. So I talk about a big frame but I also want some mass with it. Its the main reason I've stayed away from some deer. If you gave me the choice of the Hansen buck or the Jordon buck, I'd take the Jordon buck. It just has more mass! With me bone is cool! With others, it doesn't matter. To each his own on that one!

My perfect deer has at least 45 inches of mass, 30 plus beams, and a spread over 24 inside. Thats a score of about 129. Now take a 5X5 frame with 8 inch brows, 14 inch 2s and 3s and 10 inch 4s. What do you get?

A buck that scores 221 gross typical. Allow him to vary about 10 inches total from side to side (which is very little) and you have a buck close to 210 net.

I can sell that buck ALL DAY LONG! Now if he is an 8 point frame and scores 20 inches below that (take away the g4s) I can sell him all DAY and ALL NIGHT LONG!

Here is Lethal Weapons sire, Big Guy. Clean, big and around 200 gross. But probably 180-190 Net. My hunters love deer like him!

[IndependenceRanch]

What was the measurements on Redoy Bill?

[Rustyblaster]

I look for feeders to be marketed to accomodate the big bucks with countless mass and inches. Something with chutes of about four inches wide to accomodate for massive sprouting drops. When I look at a buck picture I think of how he would survive in the wild.:rolleyes: Can he drink from a shallow creek or does he need to wade out? Can he back the rack when it comes to fending off competition?

One amish fella was telling me his buck would stay near fence edge and rest his antlers in fence just to catch his breathe from lugging massive rack.:eek: At first, hearing this was impressive but the more I think of it the less sense it makes for ME to chase that kind of program. Much of my excitement is to look out the window and see something seemingly rare and spectacular acting naturally. I don't think there is anything natural about seeing buck walk around on front two feet!:eek:

Of course if I had a monster that big I would watch him so much it would start to look natural to me.:D

[Droptine]

Of course if I had a monster that big I would watch him so much it would start to look natural to me.

Now That's funny right there :)

[virgil]

What did 44Mag score @3. Iknow he was pretty typical that year.

[Don H]

Sam - I found an extremely clean 6x6, 25" inside, 210" gross buck. (Northern not Texas) Maybe the best things about him was that he was still extremely clean at 6 yrs old and has a 2yr old son that is right at 200" and also pretty darn clean. Only a few people know about him and besides myself I am pretty sure that only 2 other breeders have semen from him. He died last year and the owner isnt letting go of any semen. I will have some fawns from him this spring and only have 2 more straws to work with.

I am not sure that 250" is possible for a clean typical; my goal is a 6x6 or 7x7 that is clean and over 220". That seems like a reachable goal with some luck. I would say that a few guys are breeding for that big typical now based on the semen sales I have seen. I think there will be a big pay day for the first guy to come up with a huge framed clean typical 6x6 or better as such an animal does not now exist. I am not sure that "net B&C" will be the measure that is used to judge the great typicals as B&C may be too tough on the symetry issue. As long as there arent major side to side differences I think breeders will be interested and gross B&C or SCI will be fine as the measuring stick.

[SJames]

Thanks Don,

I knew you had been looking. I agree with you on the scoring. I was just wanting to point out how hard it was to get a NET B&C typical over 200. I would never use or promote that scoring system. I don't really like it but I've heard a lot of talk about the clean typical. I've also seen typicals that were clean but not very even from side to side. A clean 8X6 typical for example is really just a 6X6 with 2 extra "typical points" on one side. I see and have had many deer that were much stronger typicals on one side than the other. I don't care for that and in those cases "Net" typical really indicates what the deer represents given his weaker side.

But I agree with you on a typical 6X6. The little differences from side to side don't really matter unless you can really notice it. A better system to net them out might be to take the total inches from each side and use that difference as a deduction.

I am not really trying to breed for this type of deer. However due to my years of typical breeding in the past I have some really pretty clean typicals in my preserve. One 6X6 this year caught my eye and made it through the season. Many of these deer go back to some real typical breeders I had in the past (Heart Attack, etc).

I do wish you and everyone trying good luck!.....and keep in mind that when you get what you want to sell I will be interested in BUYING some!

Keep in touch - Sam

[Don H]

Sam,
I know it is going to be tough to get a perfectly clean typical. More than likely I am going to end up with a nice buck that has an extra sticker or two and maybe a forked tine. My thinking is that the cleaner the buck is, the more likely guys would want to use him on some of these wild non-typicals as the shooter markets starts correcting itself and starts paying for "the look" along with or instead of "total score". I am thinking that a huge framed clean typical bred to extreme non-typical does might help a breeder produce bucks with "the look" while also appealing to those breeders who are also striving for the typical. Time will tell what actually happens with the market but it looks to me like things have already started shifting towards cleaner, bigger framed bucks and away from score. A good example is Pretty Boy Floyd who doesnt come close to 300" but yet is much more popular than many bucks over 300".

[T.R.O.]

Don, I thought you would set your goals a little higher than that!! 220?? Thats it??I hope you dont come see my yearlings this year because youll have a long ride home hanging your head wondering why you cant be as successful as the radicals. Im just messing with ya but I do think that you and I may be at the top of the list if not the most serious deer breeders going after typicals. Not just TYPCIAL but CLEAN 6x6 or 7x7. Theres alot of people talking about it but I dont know if enough people are trusting that the change is going to happen from nons to typs. Like you said above, The huge framed typical can possibly help the crazy antlers gain back a somewhat symetrical look. Going with a huge framed typical can help out the typical breeders non typs and shooter market. Seems like its the best route to take for the future deer industry.

[Don H]

TRO- While there is probably nobody in the deer industry as "radical" as you clowns ... I would bet that there are more serious typical breeders than you imagine. Dont be a bit surprised if someone doesnt beat us both in the race for that monster clean typical.

Oh, if you think 220" is a little small, show me a clean and even 220"+ typical that is out there right now.

[Don H]

By the way TRO, did you notice that big forked G-2 tine on your Rancher photo? That is going to be a very tough trait to breed away. I plan on using Rancher as well but will be very careful about using him on another line where forked G-2s are common

[Aaron_CCDR]

T.R.O
Trust me you are not the only ones working on this. I sold nearly everything out 2 years ago to get started on this. We bred with Jed, Tacoma, Pretty Boy Floyd, John David and more when straws were first made available. I , along with several Amish farms, have been working on this for a while. Main goal is 200" clean typical at 3. If it was not sold, or there is no interest as a breeder this would still be a top price shooter. There is always a market for clean bucks, regardless of market flooding with non typicals. We may have a few tricks up our sleeves!

[Aaron_CCDR]

Here is the first failed attempt 2 year old. He went 5X5 the following year but didn't quite get it done. Sold as a shooter at 3. This is the quality of deer we were looking for just missing mass and minimum 6X6 we were missing.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b148/Aaronhome27/white53.jpg

[T.R.O.]

Don, I forgot the name of the buck that meets the 220 clean mark but il get back to you on that. I did notice that with rancher and kind or scares me because the only son my typical had was 170@ 1 but has a split g2. That bucks yearling has a split g2 as well so hopefully rancher doesnt pass that trait down. Im just going to have to use some of your secret weapon to the the cleanliness!! Do you believe the splits on rancher will stay deep like that or possibly seperate out as 2 different points off the main beam? Ultimate goal is to have that monster clean buck but every 180-200 incher that doesnt quite make it there will still be good shooter money to go towards perrfecting the cleanliness. It will be hard and there are hardly any clean ones out there. I would say you have the best upperhand possible with still clean at 6 yrs. I dont know what my buck would have turned out to be since he died 192 @ 2 perfect 6x6. With his son having a split im guessing he would have split off at 3 or 4 as well. Time will tell.

[Don H]

The biggest problem with creating a clean typical is going to be in keeping the G-2s clean. They have a tendency to either fork or have stickers coming off them. The brows can also be tough tines to keep clean. Another issue is mass as Sam already mentioned. I think a clean typical with pencil thin tines is going to turn away a lot of people. Who wants to raise a pen full of clean typical shooters only to have them breaking tines because they are the size of drinking straws? I think to get the kind of bucks we are striving for is going to take at least 2 generations of planned breeding and more likely 3 generations of planned breedings that have everything fall perfectly into place.

[kurthumphrey]

Just for fun lets see what people think is the highest scoring NET B&C buck out there. If you can provide a gross SCI scoresheet, I can net them out for you. I’d be willing to bet right now that there are none out there that break the Wild Net typical record held by the Milo Hansen Buck. I think its 212 and some change.


Sam i attached a BC score sheet of a three year old that i think might net out with a typical frame to beat the hansen buck....

[Greg M]

Kurt
Any pictures to go with it? Looks like a nice deer.

[SJames]

Hi Kurt

He has a typical frame of 113+111+22=246

Subtract difference and non-typical points of 17 and 45

He is about 184 net!

But a GREAT GREAT deer non-the-less. If he didn't have the non-typicals he would be about 229 net.

But if Monkeys could fly......

Sam

[CurtisLloyd]

45 inches of abnormals????? this would never be considered to be a typical deer although it has a large typical frame.

[kurthumphrey]

Sam the deer scored 291 gross.. wouldn't you subtract the 45 abnormal inches which would give you 246 and then subtract the 17 inches of difference which would give you 229 inches? if not then you subtracted the 45 abnormal twice???

[Aaron_CCDR]

Kurt

for the typical score the 45" would never had been added in to start with. They are a deduction. Also on your side to side you woul have an additional deduction for the g-7 being that one side would be 0 and the other 2 2/8 that would be a deduction of 2 2/8 for side to side difference. Trust me, when scoring for typical you get hit hard for deductions. The buck in my avitar to the left was a wild shot clean buck. Looks clean but when the tape went to him he was 185 gross and only netted 168. Sam was right in saying it is very hard to get a Typical buck that nets over 200" because at that size you usually end up with a lot of sticks and kicks that are all deductions.

[Aaron_CCDR]

Don't take the above reply as a hit on your buck. I would love to see the buck. Scoring from typical and non typical are just very different. Hey anyways great sounding buck. Would love to see pics of him!

[ron5743]

I have raised beef, chickens, and hogs. I can't say any of them could capture my attention like the whitetail. I find myself staring out the second story window at the deer like a pendulum swinging back and forth in front of me. It may get exponentially worse once I start seeing racks!

I am there with you Rusty,I have done the beef,chichens and hoge also,but I have never been more excited than I amnow in getting into the deer industry.