Deer feed

[virgil]

I was just wandering how much calcium and what is the best kind of calcium to put in deer feed? I now every one has different opinions just want to get few different ideas.

[ddwhitetails]

hmmmmmm very good question virgil........

[Droptine]

I've seen feeds from .8 % to 1.7%. .8%-1.2% for does and 1%-1.7% for bucks. I am feeding 1.5% to bucks and does so I can use the same feed and have it delivered in bulk. I have no idea what kind of calcium it is, I only know that's the percentage we're using.

[brianjames]

I don't think the amount is as important as the ratio to phosphorous. The calcium to phosphorus ratio should idealy be 2:1 if most production animals. And in an animal that produces bone this is especially important. just shoot for a range of 1.5:1 - 3:1.

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Brian is right, the ratio needs to be a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. If the ratio is out of balance, most of the feed guys say it will do alot of harm to the kidneys and liver of the deer. We try to stay at that ratio and will be checking our feed everyother month to make sure it stays balanced. Michael Peters

[Droptine]

Interesting. So right now I'm feeding 1.5% calcium to 1.0% phosphorus. That's 1.5 : 1

So does my calcium need to come up or does my phosphorus need to go down? I can't think of any feed that I've seen around here that has a 2:1 ratio. This is the first I'm hearing about this ratio. Where are you getting this info? Has there been a study on this?

[brianjames]

As far as studies in production animals. I'm sure there are plenty. I don't know about deer though. I took a couple of courses in college about nutrition. They really hammered home the Ca:P ratio. as far as a 1.5:1, thats pretty good, your deer will have no problem putting on antler with that. 2:1 is optimal. but trust me, trying to get it absolutly perfect without some kind of nutrient anaysis software can be frustrating. You could make your own if you were a wiz on excel...

[Mitch P]

Steve one thing to remember is that beans are high in Phosphorus so if you increase your beans for protein you`ll raise your Phosphorus level. That`s where it`s important to test your feed to get back to your BALANCE. Not that that`s what your doing it`s just food for thought for those that don`t know this about beans. Had me scratching my head at one time before I found this out.

[Predator3]

Steve,
Biotec Industries. (Record Rack) sent me a copy of Calcium/phosphorus requirements for whitetail. It was 1.35% Calcium and .95% Phosphorus minimum. He said the info came from Texas Am. Calcium and phosphorus are closely related elements and are laid down in bone in a ratio of 2.2 parts calcium to 1 part phosphorus. This means that a deficiency or an overabundance of either mineral could interfere with the proper utilization of the other. So like Brian said somewere around 2:1 is optimal. Your local co-op should have a 2:1 dairy type mineral. Hope this helps

Paul Gragg,
Whiskey Ridge Whitetails

[Droptine]

Okay, here is the formula that I just started using. I worked with the nutrionist at the Co-op on it. If you see something you don't like don't hesitate to tell me why. I'm always looking to improve my feed. I also feed Alfalfa.

11

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Steve, Shane Horrocks with MaxRax is where we heard about this recently. He was at the Whitetails of Oklahoma meeting and had a good presentation about the proper ratios. I'm sure you can contact him for more info. He highly recommends have your feed tested for the correct balance. Do you feed a textured feed or straight pellets? We just started with a new textured mix that was formulated for us by a nutritionalist to get a proper balance. We have our finger crossed. Good luck.

Michael Peters
Arrowhead Whitetails / Cola Blanca Deer Co.

P.S. Brian, tell us what ol'pops and Bill's secret mix is to grow those BIG MO whitetails......lol mp

[Predator3]

Steve,
It looks good to me.

[Droptine]

Right now, I'm using a straight pellet. I mix in some Antlermax textured feed from time to time, but I can't get it delivered in bulk so I had to try and duplicate the percentages in the textured feed into a straight pellet.

[Redwater]

I have a mineral blend I have been perfecting for 7 years. If you would like to see a lable on it or try some, drop me a e-mail and I will contact you.

[brianjames]

I noticed you have cottonseed meal in there. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I thought there were some studies done at Texas A&M on Red Deer that were fed cottonseed. I thought the study said that cotton seed has a coupound in it (I can't remember the name) that decreases fertility and decreases testosterone production in stags. Can somebody clear this up for me?

[Predator3]

Brian,
I'm not sure on the effects on Red Deer or Whitetail. But Cottonseed contains a substance called gossypol, which is toxic to non-ruminants such as horses, pigs and poultry, so there is a slight risk associated with feeding cottonseed to these animals.

It is also recommended that you do not feed cottonseed to young weaner sheep up to 5 months of age, as their stomachs are not developed enough to adequately handle gossypol.

Effects on fertility,
There have been unsubstantiated reports of adverse effects on the fertility of bulls and rams but research data has demonstrated that cottonseed has no effect on their fertility.

I do know alot of the southern farmers are using it. I would think the fertile issue would have come up before.

Paul Gragg,
Whiskey Ridge Whitetails

[virgil]

That makes sense 2;1 but what kind of calcium is the best to use. It seems as if some would be harder to digest than others. Thanks for any info.

[Antler333]

Mineral supplements are critical to growing big antler. After all, hard antler is about 20% Calcium and 10% phosphorous. Soooo, if you are really serious, the critters must have an excess of this stuff to grow big horn. But, too much at the wrong ratios can foul the deal, so you must keep close track of what you are doing. While it appears you should feed CA:P at a 2:1 ratio, hold your horses.

Mineral supplements should always be geared to the type of critter your trying to maximize and the quality of the bulk of the feed you are giving it. Alfalfa and grass are relatively high in CA while grains are low but have a higher P content. If you grow your own feed, have it analyzed for the various minerals and structure your supplement to what you bulk feed. If you don't grow your own, try to stick with a small number of feed sources that you can test EVERY YEAR.

Now, most commercial pellets are +95% bulk and 5% or so of the good stuff. They are, by nature, grab-bags of idealized supplementation conditions. With study, and if you can have your own pellets made, you will be performance and money ahead.

That being said, you can make your own concentrated supplement by lessening the filler and boosting the vitamins and minerals percentage. Just be sure to maintain a good tasting grain mix for the critters. A supplement is of little good if the critters wont eat it. I went to a mix of grain (oats) and concentrate that was fed at the rate of only ¼ lb per critter per 100 1bs of body weight. That way I wasn't lugging bags and bags of stuff around.

On the CA:P ratio after several years of our own field alfalfa hay analyses, and wide-eyed observations of critters, we went to a non-standard 1.18:1 ratio CA:P using ground limestone (essentially Calcium Carbonate), DiCalcium Phosphate and MonoCalcium Phosphate. The first item is cheap but not easily absorbed, the latter two more expensive but better to absorb and the P is already attached! The lower calcium ratio was offset by the absorbing ability of the chemical CA-P and our regular alfalfa was just dandy for additional CA input. As a bonus we would swap ground limestone for ground dolomite, (CA carbonate +Magnesium carbonate) at a notable amount to achieve a more mellow animal ... (Yes it works) Kind of like a natural sedative for cervids. As far as I can tell, it never hurts to have more mellow deer. I hate ping-pong balls.

[J&L Whitetails]

The following was posted on the old site by Brigid. I am by no means a nutritionist, but after reading this I quit feeding cotton seed in my mix.......

Cottonseed and its products are widely popular due to a number of factors. 1. Cottonseed/products ARE basically nutritious. 2. Cottonseed/products are cheap and readily available in the South. 3. Outfitters in low fence or no fence situations can feed cottonseed in their feed and fatally poison hogs, coons, possums, and many other non-target pests that usually hang around the feeders. In places in Texas, deer are overpopulated, and reproductive damage to a portion of individuals would not even be noticed.

Gossypol is a poisonous plant pigment found in cottonseed. It is very toxic to mono-gastrics like dogs and is somewhat less toxic to ruminants due to the moderating effect “functional” rumen microbes have on the toxin. Gossypol basically has two different chemical structures, a (+) gossypol and a (-) gossypol, with the (-) gossypol being more toxic of the two in all cases. If you’re feeding cottonseed, do you know which one is in your feed?

In a 2003 Journal of Dairy science research article at University of Cal Davis, inclusion level of Pima cottonseed (i.e., 12.8%) numerically depressed performance of cows of several types, although, “these differences failed to reach statistical significance”, if you call a 12.8% performance reduction insignificant! A 12.8% reduction in antler size of a potential 170 class shooter results in a 148 class shooter. Is that financially significant?

A recent study by Dr. Ron Randal of Texas A&M found that gossypol toxins from cottonseed can indeed stunt deer antler growth!

A Mississippi State extension bulletin states that “Young sexually developing bulls are 10 times more sensitive to gossypol than are females” (who are also sensitive to it). They go on to state there is considerable breed variability with some even more sensitive than normal. What is their recommendation for young bulls? “It is advisable to feed young bulls none or low levels of cotton seed meal and no whole cotton seed.”

A study by Dr.Velasquez and Pereira concluded “cottonseed meal fed to Holstein bulls from 6-16 months of age resulted in increased sperm abnormalities, decreased sperm production, and adversely affected some aspects of sexual behavior”

On the flip side, a research project was funded by Cottonseed Incorporated at the University Extension center at San Angelo, Tx. http://www.cottoninc.com/Cottonseed/SupplementalFeedForDeer/?S=Cottonseed&Sort=0The Headlines claimed “Cottonseed Good for Deer!” The study was conducted by a Dr. Huston, an animal nutritionist. While reading the results, I found Dr. Huston was only quoted twice. He said “once Easi-Flow became commercially available, it became a perfect fit for this research”. Dr. Huston then cautions “that it is risky for cottonseed to be fed at high levels and must only be used as a supplement”. That is hardly a glowing report for Cottonseed Inc.’s research dollar!

Deer on both sides of a high fence are under enough stress already such as: endless testing requirements, artificial insemination, pathogens, diseases, predators, etc. Is adding more stress by feeding your deer known toxins like gossypol a sound economic decision? Is sub-clinical poisoning of your deer herd harmful? I believe so! There are better paths to take.

Brigid O’Donoghue

[Droptine]

So are you telling me you shouldn't have cottonseed in your feed at any level? It seems to me that these studies were done by feeding large quantities of cottonseed. I did see another study done by the Kleburg Wildlife institute where they feed whole cottonseed and the deer that were on it either loss weight or didn't gain weight while the control group on pellets either stayed the same or gained weight. the interesting thing was that the group that was fed Cottonseed whouldn't eat it too a level that was bad for them. It's like they knew exactly how much they could eat. However, I don't recall it doing any study about antler growth or reproduction.

[J&L Whitetails]

I had cotton seed in my mix for 2 years and never had a problem. The mix I was using only had 75 pounds of whole cottonseed per ton. Like I said, I have no real backing that cotton seed is BAD, but every time I see a conversation on the subject the results are always the same. I pulled it out of my feed to be safe, but I never experienced a problem. I should also say that the buck I live bred with last year was fed the cottonseed mix for 2 years and he got every doe in the pen, so I cant say it affected his "swimmers" either.

[Droptine]

Okay, I sent an email to the nutritionist I've bee working with at the Co-op and this was his response:

Steve-



What you have heard about cottonseed is correct. Dr. Randal at Overton did research several years ago feeding whole cottonseed to whitetails. He did see some problems in both antler development and fertility. However, this was whole cottonseed, not a balanced feed using cottonseed meal as a constituent. Cottonseed meal is one of the common protein sources in deer feeds and I have not heard of any problems. I have also asked researchers that specialize in wildlife what their thoughts were and they believed the meal, when balanced in a feed, causes no problem.



I typically use cottonseed meal and soybean meal in roughly a 1:1 ratio to achieve the desired protein level. We can use all soybean meal if you want but I really don’t think you will see any benefit.



Thank you

Robert



Robert Barrett

Nutritionist

Producers Cooperative Association

Bryan, Texas

So with that, I ask you, should I get all my protein from soy bean? Anyone?

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Steve, I would go with the soybean mix. You will have to ask yourself if it is worth the risk. Our mix uses roasted soybeans. I'm sure you can ask 10 different people and get 20 answers. Good luck.

Michael Peters
Arrowhead Whitetails / Cola Blanca Deer Co.

[CurtisLloyd]

I use a 17.5% pellet from a local mill it is a field pea-lentil base with oats for fiber and wheat an barley screenings, full balanced nutrient and vitamin package ,the guy who owns the mill has 30 years experience pelleting feed, the pellets reach my deer with only 2-3% dust, deer don't eat dust until starving price.... $169.00 CDN trucking 40 ton $400

[ddwhitetails]

curtis your only paying 100 dollars a ton??

[ddwhitetails]

ooops i meant to say...curtis you only paying 100 dollars per 10 tons?????

[Droptine]

Thanks Arrowhead.

Any other opinions? Cottonseed meal and Soybean meal or Just Soybean meal for a protein source?

[IndependenceRanch]

The chance that cottenseed in any style our amount is enough for me to not use it at all.
That said I used to stress out and get frustrated each and every year with my feed mix. What should the mix all contain? How much of what minerals? Is there some "secret mix" that some guys are using? What do I feed the bucks and what doe I feed the does? Pellet or loose mix? And then all the problems with the feed mills around here. They would make my feed and then later say, "oops we forgot to put you soybeans in" or some other ingredient. I finally said enough all ready and picked one mix and have it made in small (1,000LB) batches in a loose mix. I pick it up, look at the feed closely. Smell it, and feed it. I do plan to get my own mixer and mix my own feed to insure everything gets into the feed that is supposed to be in there though. I just haven't committed the money to that yet. But I have stopped chasing that "secret mix" and boy it feels good to not stress about something in my life:)
Could I have bigger bucks if I did something different? Maybe. But you know what? If I can raise good deer with what I am feeding now then I know my deer are big because of the quality of the genetics and not the feed. And I think that is what people want to buy.

P.S. I don't mean that others shouldn't try and feed their deer a good mix, or strive to produce the biggest bucks they can. I didn't mean that at all. I just mean it feels good to me to have been able to get past worrying about it ALL the time.

[Droptine]

The chance that cottenseed in any style our amount is enough for me to not use it at all.
That said I used to stress out and get frustrated each and every year with my feed mix. What should the mix all contain? How much of what minerals? Is there some "secret mix" that some guys are using? What do I feed the bucks and what doe I feed the does? Pellet or loose mix? And then all the problems with the feed mills around here. They would make my feed and then later say, "oops we forgot to put you soybeans in" or some other ingredient. I finally said enough all ready and picked one mix and have it made in small (1,000LB) batches in a loose mix. I pick it up, look at the feed closely. Smell it, and feed it. I do plan to get my own mixer and mix my own feed to insure everything gets into the feed that is supposed to be in there though. I just haven't committed the money to that yet. But I have stopped chasing that "secret mix" and boy it feels good to not stress about something in my life:)
Could I have bigger bucks if I did something different? Maybe. But you know what? If I can raise good deer with what I am feeding now then I know my deer are big because of the quality of the genetics and not the feed. And I think that is what people want to buy.

P.S. I don't mean that others shouldn't try and feed their deer a good mix, or strive to produce the biggest bucks they can. I didn't mean that at all. I just mean it feels good to me to have been able to get past worrying about it ALL the time.

Thanks Roger and I hear what you're saying. I look forward to that day that I don't have to stress about the mixture of my feed:) I think I'm going to just remove the cottonseed meal and go straight soybean. Will it make a difference? I don't know, but I agree that why take the risk.

[Liveoak]

We feed all of our deer a 16% pellet that is a soybean based pellet with no cottonseed from a local mill but we also feed the bucks Record Rack 18% textured feed from March 1-September 1. All the pens have the pellets available year round and feed the textured in troughs. up to yearlings get 2.5#'s per head per day and 2's and up get 4#'s per head per day and never have any waste. We're topdressing the textured with oxyrack this year just to see what results, if any we get. Its kinda like Roger said, we got tired of trying to figure out what everybody else was doing or seeing this big buck on this or that feed and just picked a program and stuck with it. Our deer are happy, healthy and calm so I'm satisfied with what we have. One thing I did notice when we fed a higher protein cottonseed based feed was that our does took longer to get that "plump" healthy look back after fawing, thats what caused me to switch to soybean.

[iadeer]

What is this stuff milk calcium????? feed addative or is it changing the physiology of the deer on it?

[CurtisLloyd]

dennis, maybe i wasn't too clear feed $169.00 CDN/ tonne ( metric tonne = 2200 lbs) trucking costs 400.00 for a forty ton load. hope your heart starts back up again.

[ikoff]

Just got 2 ton of custom mix pellets delivered in bulk today for $566 [$283/ton]. The price can really vary depending on the price of corn and beans. Cheapest that it's been in a year.

[dtrain007]

Genetics do wonders for antler size as well as white powder sprinkled on top of the feed!

[ddwhitetails]

I like my magic white powder added right in with the feed when its made!!