fawn scouring

[florida boy]

I have a doe fawn that seems to be scouring. She is very healthy overall.
Feeding 3 cups red cap milk, + 1/2 cup save-a-kid milk replacer + 1 tsp probiotics,+ colostrum . Feeding 2-4 ounces 5 times / day. have a second fawn just started feeding, no scours yet, but if it is the milk mix, it too will be in am. Any veteran help to a more perect mix. or something I can add to firm her up a little. She is now 4 days old

[virgil]

Sounds like mixing kinda rich just my thought. Couple spoons of pumpkin in milk will firm her up put 2 spoons in first bottle then one after that until firms up. This is what i do works good for me. I'm no docter thowe.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I think thats alot of replacer...

[ddwhitetails]

You could do without the milk replacer completely and you will probably be better off.......definitly use the pumpkin in with the mix it will fix her up..........you can keep using some pumpkin in the mix to help them from getting the scours in the future...

[CurtisLloyd]

The most replacer I would use with that mix would be 1/8 cup, I use wet-nurse brand and use just under 1/2 cup to mix a whole bottle of straight replacer.

[Rick]

we are mixing 1 cup of LOL kid replacer with 1 gallon of milk, when you say she seems to be scouring what does that mean, soft stool is common in young fawns but should not be water like

[John Swank]

I just want to offer a suggestion on red cap milk.... When the milk is hauled from the farm the to milk factory, a large portion of the fat and other nutrients are removed, leaving a minimum of 3.25% fat in whole red cap milk.

Look at any milk replacer on the market and there is a minimum of 23% fat.

I agree some folks are supposedly having good luck with whole milk, but I would be a little apprehensive to use something that has been stripped of a large portion nutrients.

I tried whole milk last year in a emergency situation. I used it for 2 weeks and noticed the fawn was not growing, was weak and his stool was starting to get a little soft. After looking into it, I realized what takes place with whole milk from the time it leaves the farm until it hits the store shelves. I got a bag of milk replacer and slowly transitioned the fawn to pure milk replacer and the stool firmed up and the fawn grew like a weed.

If you have your heart set on using red cap milk, at the very least, mix it 50/50 with milk replacer so it will be a little richer on fat and other nutrients.

Just my opinion and experiences with red cap milk...

[LJwhitetails]

We have a dairy in town that sells to the public and you can see the cream in the jugs. I haven't used any on the fawns but am giving it alot of thought.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I am using the red cap and my deer are doing Great...My first one I pulled has passed her brother...from what I've seen so far I can't say enough good stuff about it...You would think it was something I sell I talk about it so much.

[virgil]

They only take cream out of 2% 1% skim and other specialty milk. Some friends of mine have one of biggest dairy in western PA I've personaly seen how the whole process works and no cream is taken from red cap before it hits the shelf at the store. Your right on the fat content milk replacer is alot higher but also has a lot of artificial gabage in it not the same as mother milk of any kind. This is my first year using red cap but my fawns look better than ever so far and my largest is drank 24 oz last feeding at 11 days old with out one bit of bloating. Now if i had been feeding replacer after 4 oz he would have started to bloat.I'll take a picture later of fawns and post how well they look. So far i'm hooked on red cap and have nothing bt good things to say.

[ddwhitetails]

John,
Sorry to hear your fawns didn't do well on the Red Cap. You are the first person i have ever heard say anything negative against it.........Virgil is correct about the cream and fat.......they do not remove any from the red cap milk.....now I don't know how the milk could lose any cream or fat during shipment that does not seem possible to me......I do know many people that use it and have great results.......the milk replacer probably does have higher fat content but who knows where its coming from.......you would think a lot more things would happen turning the milk into a powder.....don't know how that process works but its got to be complicated.......but everyone has their favorite stuff to use......I suggest you use what your comfortable with...........but i can tell you without a doubt that the Red cap milk has all the cream and fat in it and the fawns that I have raised on it have all been Big.....fat......Healthy fawns........got to stick with what works!!

[John Swank]

I agree, what works for one may not work for another... My point to the red cap milk is the low nutritional content when compared to milk replacer.

Cow milk contains, on average, 3.4% protein, 3.6% fat, 4.6% lactose, 0.7% minerals and supplies 66 kcal of energy per 3.5 ounces. See this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk) to wiki for more nutritional information on milk.

Compare the nutritional content of red cap milk to any milk replacer and I think you will be surprised.

I tried the red cap milk and if I had to feed 24 ounces (almost a quarter of a gallon) per feeding, maybe that's why it didn't work for me. I was only feeding about 6-8 ounces per feeding at 11 days old. At a rate of 24 ounces plus per feeding, it would take close to 50 gallons to wean a single fawn, if my calculations are correct... :eek:

I guess the bottom line is, you should feed 4-6 times more red cap milk to get the same results as milk replacer... Interesting!! :confused: I wonder why we don't feed new born human babies red cap milk?

All I can say is, if its working for you, I wouldn't change a thing. I also think I will stick to feeding ounces per day instead of gallons. I couldn't imagine carrying gallon jugs to the fawn pens, and then not having any milk left for my breakfast..... :D





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[ddwhitetails]

John are you a fisherman? You know how those fish stories go hmmm..:D...I think you might be over exagerating with the 24 ounces per feeding thing....:eek:...maybe you do need to feed a little more red cap (not the amount you quoted above). I like feeding something that comes straight from the cow with very little human intervention .......with the milk replacer there is a lot of human intervention and when you have that is usually when things start messing up.......I'll take feeding a little more Red cap as I say it's worth it as the fawns are fat, healthy and they wean earlier, never have trouble with scours or bloat as well as they grow as fast or faster than the fawns left on mom. We all have our ways we like......and as long as it works don't change it. Heck my baby boy has had a lot of red cap milk.....so yes i do feed it to my son too!! :D

[John Swank]

John are you a fisherman? You know how those fish stories go hmmm..:D...I think you might be over exagerating with the 24 ounces per feeding thing....:eek:...maybe you do need to feed a little more red cap (not the amount you quoted above).
This is my first year using red cap but my fawns look better than ever so far and my largest is drank 24 oz last feeding at 11 days old with out one bit of bloating.

Nah, I don't fish much... Just quoting the information listed here in the discussion.

Wanting to learn more about whole milk so I could pass it along here, I talked to a friend that I went to school with who works at the local dairy. According the him, the butter fat is indeed removed from the milk and then the industry standard of 3.25% for whole milk is put back in during homogenization, along with vitamin D3. This process is due to the large variables in fat content from farm to farm and breed to breed and is done to keep the product consistent.

As I said earlier, I tried the whole milk and it didn't work for me - maybe because I didn't feed enough, I don't know. I am not bashing whole milk! Just pointing out the lower nutritional values when compared to milk replacer and suggesting that the scours "could be" the result of the whole milk - as it was in my case.

DD, I applaud the success you and others are having with whole milk and I hope the best for all of you. It really doesn't matter what you, me or the next guy uses, as long as the fawns are healthy and we are happy with the results. What works for you may not work for someone else. That's why we all share our different experiences so we can find what works and what doesn't work in our particular situations. ;)

I do know of a farm that had some problems with rickets (weak and broken bones) while using red cap milk. Maybe this is another reason why I am coming off as not being found of using something that is clearly undernourished when compared to any of the milk replacers on the market. :confused:


Kind Regards,
John



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[Wooden acres]

John is correct regular raw cow's milk is about 3.6 to 3.8 percent fat from a pretty good herd of holsteins. Now Jersey's would be about 5.4 percent fat on an average . I think I read once where a deer's milk was about 8 percent fat . There are various sources for fat content in commercial feeds and it really does depend on what those sources are . Everyones got what works for them and hey if it's working why try to fix it ? Just my opinion ...

[virgil]

Bones are made from calcium not fat content. Some dairies must be different than others but i made sure to check mine before buying from them we have a state min when comes to fat content milk most be higher than 3.25% to be considered whole milk.But can run as high as 4%.My dairy does take cream out and put back in seen them doing it but not with whole milk straight from cow to tank to modgenizer to pasterizer to gug to my fridge to my fawns little belly.

[allenb]

florida boy, just wondering how the fawn is doing. Better I hope. How bad are (or were) the scours. Let us Know. Good Luck . Allen

[ddwhitetails]

John,
I agree and i respect the fact that you like using the milk replacers......i am by no means an expert on milk....i do however, have many friends that are dairy farmers who have a lot more knowledge than i when it comes to whole milk. I am pleased with what i hear from them and with how my fawns respond......yes you did get the quote from virgil....virgil is a friend of mine in fact i was just up to see the actual fawn that he says ate 24 ounces at 11 days......however, that is not what the fawn is eating every feeding as you were stating earlier.....that was a one time thing....not saying it might not do it again...but it's not doing it every feeding trust me! I just don't want you to miss lead anyone who is considering using red cap..........I am the same as you and i wish you the best for you and your fawns no matter what you use....the most important thing in all of this is healthy fawns.......good luck

[ddwhitetails]

Florida Boy,
I apologize for getting side tracked on your thread.....I hope your scour problems are improving and if not please let us know so we can put our heads together and try to help you with your fawn!!

[John Swank]

John,
I agree and i respect the fact that you like using the milk replacers......i am by no means an expert on milk....

I too respect the fact that you are having great results while using red cap milk. I, on the other hand, did not have such great luck with it and was forced to go back to what worked best for me and the fawns.



i do however, have many friends that are dairy farmers who have a lot more knowledge than i when it comes to whole milk. I am pleased with what i hear from them and with how my fawns respond......

I by no means am a milk expert either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. In all seriousness, I was born and raised on a dairy farm and pulled tits two times a day, everyday, from the time I was 10 years old until 18. I never really paid much attention to "what happens" after the milk left our bulk tank every other day. I was more interested in the milk weights and bacteria counts more so then what the dairy does with it. That is why I called Brian to find out exactly what the dairy does and if the whole or red cap milk goes straight into the jugs, which it does not.



yes you did get the quote from virgil....virgil is a friend of mine in fact i was just up to see the actual fawn that he says ate 24 ounces at 11 days......however, that is not what the fawn is eating every feeding as you were stating earlier.....that was a one time thing....not saying it might not do it again...but it's not doing it every feeding trust me!

I didn't think it was taking 24 ounces every feeding - that's a lot of fluid.... :eek:


I just don't want you to miss lead anyone who is considering using red cap..........

I am not misleading anybody. Just stating the facts and calling it as I see it. I suggested to Florida Boy that the whole milk may be causing the same problems I was having when I tried the red cap milk in a emergency situation. One of the main reasons I am not using the red cap milk is the low nutritional content of it. With it only having around 3-4% protein, 3-4% fat and less than 1% of combined minerals, it makes you wonder how the fawn can even survive on it. Even when milking our own cows, and raising sheep and goats, the only mothers milk we fed the babies was the colostrum. Then they were on a milk replacer containing lactobacillus from then on. This is why I suggested to mix the red cap 50/50 with milk replacer in order to get the nutrients up and to thicken the red cap milk up a tad, which could help hold the fluid a bit longer and quite possibly help stiffen the stool. I don't think that was misleading in any way.



I am the same as you and i wish you the best for you and your fawns no matter what you use....the most important thing in all of this is healthy fawns.......good luck

I concur... Best of luck to everyone and please read the product labels or ask your vet about any of the "home remedies" before administering. Your fawns will thank you for it....




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[ddwhitetails]

John,
I may try mixing not sure yet......going to see how they do on the red cap all you can eat method first.......as long as it doesn't take me 50 gallons to wean a fawn:eek:. I will let everyone know how it goes good or bad......should i have problems then I will be honest and let everyone know. Like I said before, you are the first one Ihave ever heard with negative thoughts on the red cap.......everyone that I have talked with that has ever used it loves it.........Sometimes I think the milk replacers are packed with a little too much and the fawns little bellies have trouble handling it......hey maybe the best answer is mixing the red cap 50/50. John I don't want you to think I don't respect your knowledge as i appreciate everyones experiences and knowledge that you get off this site. Especially those who have been in this industry a lot longer than me.

[florida boy]

She is still really loose!!! I cut the mix like you said and am now adding 1/8 cup save a kid, 1 tsp probios, and 3 cups red cap. I have been really busy the past few days with other things, sorry for the delay in response. I have a buck fawn whose mother neglected (first fawn ever) He just started eating good this morning but is extremely constipated. (Talk about a mix, one clogged up, and the other squirting water!) It moaned and fel over when it finally passed a turd that looked like it was 70% sand. I am about to administer an enema of warm water to try to help him. I think he was constipated because of lack of fluids. didn't eat 6 ounces in day and a half. Eating good now!

Thanks for your halp and all your concern. You Guys are always so helpful with your priceless information

Will report back on the duo later tonight

God bless you all
F.B.

[Rick]

We have used Raw goats milk the last 2 years with great results, however, I have been concerned about the facilities of the operation where we get our milk from and the risk of ecoli,etc... so we switched to whole cows milk this year, we have only been using for 1 1/2 weeks now and eveything seems to be going well. One difference I will tell you is the fawns seem to poop more often, on goats milk it was once a day, on whole milk it is aleast twice a day and sometimes 3 times, this tells me i think, that the whole cows milk is not being absorbed into their systems the same as the raw goats milk but this may not be a major issue, we will know when we see the final result of bottle feeding,

We also add 1 cup of LOL kid replacer to the whole cows milk (1 gallon), we may increase up to 3 cups not sure yet, we did this same thing with the raw goats milk with good success but did not really see much difference when we excluded the replacer with the raw goats milk.

We also do not feed all they will drink, we start at 4oz first day by the end of the first week we try to be up to 6oz each feeding by the end of the 2nd week we try to be up to 9oz and so on, we only increase fron 1/2 to 1oz at a time to not overload their system. Our fawns are always hungry and that is the way I like them, when the barn door opens they get up and start crying for milk and this is before they ever see me, they still want to suck after they are done and that is what I like to see... but i dont want to starve them either.

All this talk has me concerned, did we do the right thing or not by switching but we have already started and will hope for the best, so far so good........

[WillPenn Whitetails]

Ask 20 deer farmers a questions and you get 21 different answers.... but that's what is so great about these forums.
I know farmers that have successfully raised fawns on just about every option out there. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than another, just which one that you are most comfortable with. I have also seen/heard from friends that have had issues with every type of milk/replacer etc... out there, including problems with regular old red cap milk.
Feed whatever works for you. But, I personally would not feed my fawns all they want. That's not how their mother feeds them and after all that is who we are trying to be.

[John Swank]

Ask 20 deer farmers a questions and you get 21 different answers.... but that's what is so great about these forums.
I know farmers that have successfully raised fawns on just about every option out there. It doesn't mean that one is necessarily better than another, just which one that you are most comfortable with. I have also seen/heard from friends that have had issues with every type of milk/replacer etc... out there, including problems with regular old red cap milk.
Feed whatever works for you. But, I personally would not feed my fawns all they want. That's not how their mother feeds them and after all that is who we are trying to be.

So very true Mike.... ;)





We have used Raw goats milk the last 2 years with great results, however, I have been concerned about the facilities of the operation where we get our milk from and the risk of ecoli,etc...

I often wonder how using raw milk from uncertified herds would affect our status? Simply put, we are talking raw animal product from herds that are NOT TB and Bruc certified and feeding it to our certified fawns.




John,
I may try mixing not sure yet......going to see how they do on the red cap all you can eat method first.......as long as it doesn't take me 50 gallons to wean a fawn:eek:.

DD, if you elect to mix, just remember to mix the replacer as instructed on the label and THEN mix it 50/50 with whole milk. Indeed you can fluctuate the richness of the milk to meet your fawns needs. If the fawn can handle the suggested mix, then mix as per instruction. If you run into problems, then thin the mix out a bit... You would be surprised at how easily you can raise and lower the formula to find what works the best.




John ,Glad you posted.i always like hearing Both Sides,we would be in trouble if we got only one side of any story! after few yrs Reading forums. i have come to listen up when you get something out of John.

Thanks DC, much appreciated....




She is still really loose!!! I cut the mix like you said and am now adding 1/8 cup save a kid, 1 tsp probios, and 3 cups red cap. I have been really busy the past few days with other things, sorry for the delay in response. I have a buck fawn whose mother neglected (first fawn ever) He just started eating good this morning but is extremely constipated. (Talk about a mix, one clogged up, and the other squirting water!) It moaned and fel over when it finally passed a turd that looked like it was 70% sand. I am about to administer an enema of warm water to try to help him. I think he was constipated because of lack of fluids. didn't eat 6 ounces in day and a half. Eating good now!


God bless you all
F.B.

FB, just remember to make slow subtle changes. Making quick and drastic changes in the diet could cause more harm then good. If all else fails, consult with a Vet as dehydration happens really fast in these little buggers when they have the squirts. You can check for dehydration by lifting the lip and pushing your finger on the gums. If it stays whitish for some time after you removed your finger, then it is possible the fawn is dehydrated. Also, you can pinch some of the skin and pull it up - if it stands on its own, again this is an indicator of dehydration. Grape Gatorade or electrolytes has worked great for me in the past. Please don't be intimidated by calling a Vet. That's what they are there for.

Concerning the constipation, when a fawn is born usually the mother will lick the rear and remove the pasty plug from the anus. However, I have found several fawns, it was more common in our lambs, where the plug does not get removed by mom and it then sets up like a sticky silly putty, obstructing the bowel movements. Simply lube up your pinky and insert it in the anus of the fawn to be sure the plug has in fact been removed as soon as you pull your fawns. This has become a regular routine for me when I tag fawns. You can also lightly squeeze on the region around the anus and feel if it is obstructed. I have also had the fawn work the pasty plug out while rearing with a warm damp towel.


Good luck,
John




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[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I feed my Fawns at 6am, they are just now wanting more.None of that 2 oz here and there...Their belly don't bloat they are comfortable when done eating not looking like they will pop! They eat, then play,then lay down... than come for more on their own in around 5 hours...
I love the red cap. They are doing great,Even the one I pulled at 3 hours old (emergency)

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

John
I love everything you say I normally hang on to every word, You know what you are talking about and look in to things I didn't believe it before I tried it I said ..."if they were getting what they needed they wouldn't need to drink that much."...(I was wrong they handle this much better, no residue left over in bottles, no bloating everything great...not one downside other than it will cost me a little more...But I believe in this so much more... I have seen the difference in so many ways.

PS not looking for a fight I just don't want anyone discouraged from trying because I think it can save fawns lives

[virgil]

I;ve been feeding red cap as much as they want no scours no bloat everything fine so far. Fawns are growing fast to bigger than ones on mothers.Was going to post pictures but wife took camera card will try to post pictures when she gets home to show how well they are doing.

[John Swank]

As I have said all along, if it works for you then don't change a thing. We all know how difficult it can be to find our niche.

I am not looking for a fight either, but was singled out by the red cap milk crew because I suggested that the milk may be the culprit for scours, as it was in my case. This then led to a deep discussion on nutritional values and the possibilities of malnourishment.

I really don't care if a person feeds their deer dog or cat food as long as it works for them. If it works, then that's all that matters. I do think it is being a little irrational on our parts to not look at all the equations and weight them out accordingly when someone is asking for help.

When I have time, I will continue to offer my observations and suggestions when someone is asking for help, regardless of who's feelings or pride it affects. I have never been a politically correct kind of guy and basically call it as I see it. I hope the folks on here can respect that.

The funniest part about this industry today is, it reminds me a lot of my sisters beauty salon. As soon as one lady gets or tries something new, all the other women soon do the same, just so they can say they have one or are doing it too, regardless of what the widget is.

Last year the red cap milk was starting to be talked about as the new and exciting solution for feeding fawns. The year before it was Fox Valley, the previous year before it was Zoologic and so on and so on... Unfortunately in the red cap situation, last year a fellow having fawns at around the 10-11 week old range, were breaking legs left and right. We are not talking one or two broken legs, we are talking three and four legs on one fawn broken from just running. Needless to say, after four or five fawns broke their legs, he sent one of them off for a necropsy and found out it was malnourished.

This could have been due to a couple reasons including the feed he fed his doe with and from the milk he used to bottle feed with. As I understand it, the milk was the more probable culprit in this situation. Is this something that could happen in every case? We don't know and it may be a bit early and unfair to suggest red cap milk as the new wonder solution for feeding fawns.

Please understand what it is your are feeding your animals with, and the consequence, before jumping on the bandwagon and trying the newest fads. Consult with your Vet and ask his professional opinion before using. Keep in mind, my Vet did tell me to use the whole milk a few feedings "if" it was the only thing I had available at the time. Then as soon as I could, get something with higher fat, protein and mineral levels and slowly transition the fawn to the replacer. I tried the milk for 2 weeks and did not like to results. It may have been that I didn't feed it in the larger quantities that seems to go hand and hand with the suggestions from the folks that are using it and like it.

I am not trying to hurt peoples reputation or feelings, but rather trying to educate everyone as to the experiences I had, and others have had using a product. Many of the people that visit this forum do not have access to Vets that work with deer, so they rely on the information that gets posted here. I felt really bad about all the fawns that had broke their legs and had to be put down. I also felt even worse for the fellow that had a great crop of A/I babies and lost most of them to malnourishment.

I agree, red cap is a much cleaner and easier product to use, but at what price to the fawn, is all I am insinuating. I also agree, and so does our Vet, that red cap will indeed save a fawns life - if it's the only thing you have available at the time and fed short term....

Good luck to everyone, and I hope you find what works best for you and primarily your animals.... ;)




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[virgil]

John very well put i agree with alot of what you say not all thowe.As far as feeding red cap if you are going to feed it i would make sure you feed fawn all they want so they get more nutrision. Your buddy probaly was not feeding enuff milk. You don't see calves running around breaking legs and there bones are much bigger. Plus you should see how big RDM Wildbunches deer are from last year they are as big as most 2-3year olds and they fed red cap as well as some others i no. Not saying replacer no good but red cap much easier.

[florida boy]

It's funny how every one uses a different system. I'm a new farmer in my second year bottle feeding. "Every day presents a new challenge!" I appreciate these posts so much. In FL we are all new to the industry. The closest vet we have that will attempt to do deer is near north GA. The few good cattle vets have seen the fragile state of deer, and realized the values of them, and are scared to try something new. I've learned that there are many ways to solve problems through these forums and for that I am thankful.

The doe fawn is still realy runny. i decreased the save a kid to 1/8 cup to 3 cups red cap, with still the probios. I gave her 1/2 cc batril 100 incase the slime is from an infection.

The buck fawn received an enema this morning. a little bloddy poop later, but it sms all is back to normal. He is drinking regular now.

Fawns are 6 days old now and drinking 5-6 oz 5-6 times a day. Is this too much. They seem satisfied when done. They never look bloated or pot bellied.

If doe is still sliming in morning, I will cut her back to regular red cap mixed 4:1 w/ water. As I remember i did this once a few years back with teo orphans and it settled things.

The Probios I use I got from Tractor supply. The diretions say 4 grams/head/day for goats. I give aprox. 1 tsp per head/day too much or not enough?

Thanks again guys
your amateur but humble friend
Robert the Florida Boy

[virgil]

Try putting some fesh dirt in pen every day or two this will do same thing as probiotics and is natural all fawns in the wild eat dirt. It still will not hurt to countinue giving amount you already are giving along with the dirt.

[allenb]

Florida, Sounds like you are on the right track. I like to add a tea spoon of pure pumpkin (Libbys) and a tea spoon plain yogart to every 6 to 8 oz. Its good for the belly and gives them a little something more to digest. Work good for us. Allen

[GatorBait]

You want to be careful using Baytril in fawns can affect their growth plates. I like to use Nuflor when an antibiotic is needed.

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Florida Boy, have you had your fawns checked for e-coli? I had two that were passing the same slimey mucus poop that your are talking about and it WAS e-coli. I treated one with excenal and the other with Target Probiotics paste. They are both doing well now but it was very touch and go for a while. It would be a good idea to get them checked if you haven't done so yet. If you have any questions give me a call 918-381-3255
Good luck.