Line Breeding v. In-Breeding

[Hollowroad Whitetails]

Hi Guys:

I have heard many debates on this subject but with the breeding season coming up so fast I wanted some input on the question of "How close is too close?" If anyone has any examples of some close matchups I would like to here. Obviously, in planning our breeding program we want to build on our best genetics without crossing the line.

As always, any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Daniel Zola
Hollow Road Whitetails

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

This might help
http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=21

[Horseshoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw

[virgil]

I would say anything but full brother and sister is exeptable in line breeding. By breeding full brother and sister you are putting exact genes on exact genes wich tends to cause problems. Mother to son or father to daughter is ok because you are not crossing exact genes with exact genes. However sometimes you will get the best of the best and other times you will get worst of the worst. High Roller is a good example of line breeding Mother to son and getting the best of the best. When line breeding this close however it is a gamble.You can cross lines a little further out with out having as many problems still developing the traight you are looking to make stronger. I personaly like to stay a little further out when line breeding there tends to be less problems with your animals developing bad traits.

[RLAwhitetails]

I plan to give it a try on a small scale, I dont have does that are that high breed and would like to improve the quality of does that I have. I plan to A.I. two of them to a high quality buck this year and then A.I. there doe fawns right back to the same buck. With the others I plan to A.I. to a good buck then A.I. there doe fawns back to a half brother or more distant relation.

[wvdeerman]

Hey John Swank,

I have been truely amazed by your knowledge of line-breeding and in-breeding. Although I couldn't follow along EVERYTHING, I did learn quite a bit about the topic. Especially about breeding the half siblings. That is something I thought was always taboo.

My question is coincidentally about Rolexby10. I have a couple straws of him. What would be your prediction to AI Rolexby10 to a BoMax daughter? BoMax is of course a Maxbo son. These are all children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of Max. Can you give me a prediction forecast?

[ANTLER VALLEY]

I would say anything but full brother and sister is exeptable in line breeding. By breeding full brother and sister you are putting exact genes on exact genes wich tends to cause problems. Mother to son or father to daughter is ok because you are not crossing exact genes with exact genes. However sometimes you will get the best of the best and other times you will get worst of the worst. High Roller is a good example of line breeding Mother to son and getting the best of the best. When line breeding this close however it is a gamble.You can cross lines a little further out with out having as many problems still developing the traight you are looking to make stronger. I personaly like to stay a little further out when line breeding there tends to be less problems with your animals developing bad traits.

I'm no genetic expert, but brother on sister would not be exact gene on gene. A brother and sister must be paternal twins, meaning their eggs were separately fertilized, not split. True, it is close, and I don't plan on breeding brothers and sisters, but they're not truly twins. Interesting thread!

[virgil]

Your very much right I get what you are saying. Should not have said exact but they still are as close as you get to exact. I just no that when breeding brother and sister meaning a deer with the same mother and the same father you can get into a lot of health problems and deformalities. It can be done but I would not do it or recomend it.

[Jack]

I lucked out with a brother sister mating. Two doe fawns were produced and one when bred to just about anything will produce a very nice bucks in the 220 SCI range at two. The other sister also will produce some very nice bucks. I believe the one doe is what I would call and use as my anchor doe. She is in most of my good bucks pedigrees sometimes on both sides. But like someone said she really didn't prove herself till she was five or six.

[wvdeerman]

Antler Valley,

I don't think anyone referred to "twins". They are talking about FULL BLOODED brother and sister breedings, (which twins would also fall in that category) Meaning that both deer had the same mother and father. THAT is what is being advised against. Meanwhile, the breedings of half brother and sister, ( one parent the same and one different) is ok and at times encouraged. I believe that was the direction of the topic.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Antler Valley,

I don't think anyone referred to "twins". They are talking about FULL BLOODED brother and sister breedings, (which twins would also fall in that category) Meaning that both deer had the same mother and father. THAT is what is being advised against. Meanwhile, the breedings of half brother and sister, ( one parent the same and one different) is ok and at times encouraged. I believe that was the direction of the topic.

Exact genes on genes would only be derrived from maternal twins.

[wvdeerman]

maternal twins can't be bred together anyways....they would be the same sex !!

[ANTLER VALLEY]

maternal twins can't be bred together anyways....they would be the same sex !!

Jack, that was my point exactly-seme sex (maternal) twins would be the only way to acheive exact gene/gene cross. By the way, I heard there is plenty of same-sex breeding going on in both CA and VM.

[wvdeerman]

I understand completely, Phil. As much as I agree with you scientifically, (I agree exact genes would only come from maternal twins). I feel, full blooded brothers and sisters, whether they are womb mates or not, should not be bred together. There genes may not be exact, but very similar. That is pushing the limits too far. I am not trying to argue with you, just simply expressing my opinion. That is too much concentration in the gene pool. There needs to be more limbs on that family tree.

Here is an example. I have been breeding piebalds for 7 years. I have never in-bred or line-bred any of my stock. BUT, typically (in the wild) piebalds and albinos are usually the results of incestuous relations. That's where the short legs, hump back, roman nose and underbites come from....too much in-breeding. Those concentrations can cause deformities. They can also cause inferior antler development, which is often seen in the wild from regular brown deer as well as piebalds or albinos.

Even breeding half siblings together is pushing things, but those resulting offspring can be crossed back out to keep the genetic concentration in control.


We may or may not agree on this completely, that is ok with me. I respect what you are saying. That's what makes deer farming so fun, trying something new and seeing if it works. Take care Phil, and good luck with your deer.

[virgil]

Jack, thanks for clearing that up thats what I was exactly what I was getting at. Not saying nothing good can come from it but alot of bad can come also.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

I think we're on the same page-I won't ever breed a brother/sister unless by accident.

[Josh]

Line breeding is a tool to be used by breeders to create stability in a herd. Some of the best deer of all time have a degree of line bred genetics in them. This method of breeding animals is proven again and again.

One can look to other species for answers as well such as show dogs, race horses, and cattle.

One brother/sister cross (full brother/full sister) that comes to mind is Green 43, This is Arty's mother...Fred can chime in anytime. Amos bred his full sister, a year older, and was out crossed to Maxbo, a powerhouse producer and made Arty. Look at the frame that came from this cross. WOW!!

Line bred females are the most critical part of a powerful breeding program...The outcross options in the semen market today, well they are limitless.

[wildobsessionwhitetails]

josh coudnt agree with what you said anymore i have a two year old that is linebred on the dam side with red87 and g58 top and bottom outcrossed to a flees rocky son and it worked put a 200+inch two year old in my pen


www.wildobsessionwhitetails.com

[JHW2]

Best answer I got to this question- If it works it's line breeding- If it doesn't work it's inbreeding. Horseshoe's youtube video tells the story.

[Droptine]

Great discussion. I'd like an opinion on this breeding. I've got two Old School daughters out of a Thunder / Bobb / Superman doe. I also have a really nice Old School Yearling out of a Thunder / "Old School's mother" doe. So if I bred them, they would be double bred Old School, Gladiator, Thunder, and triple bred Old School's mom.

In your opinion is this breeding to tight or just right? I was going to breed them to another Gladiator son with a different dam side, but I'm thinking the above breeding could be even better. Thanks for you thoughts.

[Droptine]

Great discussion. I'd like an opinion on this breeding. I've got two Old School daughters out of a Thunder / Bobb / Superman doe. I also have a really nice Old School Yearling out of a Thunder / "Old School's mother" doe. So if I bred them, they would be double bred Old School, Gladiator, Thunder, and triple bred Old School's mom.

In your opinion is this breeding to tight or just right? I was going to breed them to another Gladiator son with a different dam side, but I'm thinking the above breeding could be even better. Thanks for you thoughts.

I know someone has an opinion

[WillPenn Whitetails]

Hey Steve. Hope all is well buddy.
It's a little tough to say without seeing the pedigree written out. If you put the pedigree of the offspring on paper then you can go through it top to bottom and write out the percentages of each deer's contribution to the fawns.
Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of line-breeding, so I'd like to see it if you get a chance to put a pedigree together.