Froth!!!! Need help!!!

[richie0033]

this is my first year bottle feeding and I am trying to use a 1 cup zoologic to 1 gallon of red cap mixture. I am having problems with it frothing up and looking like yogurt. I am mixing it up in cold milk out of fridge. What am I doing wrong? Is it supposed to be like this? Should I just leave zoologic out??please help as I do not want fawns dead.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Froth and bloat is why I went to straight red cap.....I love it no bloat, no froth,no residue in bottles I only used Zoologic one time because I bought a buck already on that and didn't want to change it...Their directions are mix 1 part powder to 3 parts water but I can't remember if I mixed it warm or cold.
Why do you want to mix it?

[richie0033]

was mixing it to get a higher fat and protein. Do I need this. I am new

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I have a lot of expensive deer on it and I love it.
A lot of people in my area BIG DEER FARMERS are using it.They trust it and they used it in the past also with great results ....My deer seem healthier and bigger and better than ever.

[brianjames]

I don't think Red cap will prevent bloat. I used straight goat milk last year (Blue/Brown cap if you will), and had a few problems with bloating. Bloating is usually caused by bacteria in the gut giving off gas. It can happen no matter what you feed them if they get the bad bacteria...

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I think the red cap is going to cost me more.I understand bloat being from bad bacteria, but I also believe bloat comes from froth and gas.
When I would feed fawns replacer they would get a barrel belly on only a few oz... I can feed my fawns a pop bottle full with no pot belly...They would even act uncomfortable on replacer. I don't think or feel their body processes it as well.

[Liveoak]

We mix the zoologic with redcap but we make a half gallon zoologic(3/1) and mix with a half gallon whole. Last year we mixed zoologic with goats milk in this manner because of cost but since we didnt have a fresh supplier of goats milk we ran out before our last fawns were born and ended up using whole milk/zoologic. It was less $ and we had less problems with illness in those 3 so we decided to try them all that way this year.....

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

That was my thought...That is why I put their directions on mixing with water...But I also feel it doesn't get any easier for a new person than opening a gallon jug...not mixing anything.

[Liveoak]

If you'll mix the zoologic bout an hour before you plan to use it and also if mixing in a bottle or jug remove the cap a couple times in between shakes to let the pressure out it seems to reduce the froth. Once you put that mix in the whole milk it greatly reduces the froth. We usually mix a gallon then put in the fridge and dont use it for a couple of hours. When we take it out we just put the bottle in hot tap water, let it sit 5 minutes, shake, then let sit 5 more. Its usually luke warm then and the babies seem to prefer that. Just dont forget to add the colostrum.... we use first fawn in every bottle for the first 7 days. It may not be the best but it works well for us......

[John Swank]

Is it my false impression or is the 2009 bottle feeding trend to take a little of this and a little of that and mix it all together so "we" can claim to have a magic formula? What ever happened to folks just following the directions that are printed on the label of a product that is designed specifically for rearing newborn animals? :confused:

Painted Meadows,
I can not resist the urge of asking this one - do "expensive deer" from "BIG DEER FARMERS" digest their food any differently than cheap deer from LITTLE DEER FARMERS? :D

I just could not resist asking for clarification as I thought a deer was a deer, you know - a doe, a deer, a female deer - regardless of the cost to buy it or who owns it. ;)

---

Folks this is my last comment concerning store bought milk, I am done pleading the cause. If you are using whole milk and you think it is the best thing to come along, then I am happy for you. With that being said, please don't come on here after only feeding it for a few weeks and make it seem as though it is superior to replacers. Whole milk IS NOT EVEN on the same nutritional plain as any of the milk replacers on the market.

It does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out what is more nutritionally sound for your fawns when you compare the two.

Whole milk only has 3-4% protein, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk only has 3.25% fat, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk has "less than" 1% combined minerals, whereas most milk replacers have "over" 2.5% plus, most milk replacers also include microbes to promote and nourish proper rumen and digestive functions.

As Brian pointed out, bloat is also caused by many things "other" than the milk we feed. Sucking air and drinking to fast are among the many other factors that contribute to bloating. Instead of leaving the fawn suck down all 6-8 ounces at once, break it up into smaller portions and give the little booger a breather. That itself will help reduce the chances of bloat, as well as aspiration pneumonia. If you see milk or milk bubbles coming out of the fawns nose, then you are feeding the milk way to fast.

If you are in doubt or left unswayed whether to use whole milk or not, simply ask your Vet if he/she recommends feeding the whole milk and then follow their recommendations.

These are just my opinions of whole milk based on first hand experiences, and experiences of others, and with them I hope I can at least keep just one more person from experiencing malnutrition with their fawns.


Good luck with what ever you choose.
John



.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I just meant it isn't people looking for a cheap way out as suggested it is more expensive!

[CameronCrow]

If i remember right 3 yrs ago land o'lakes milk replacer showed nutritonal values for mixing with milk or water. The milk mixture was higher for all categories.

[ddwhitetails]

Is it my false impression or is the 2009 bottle feeding trend to take a little of this and a little of that and mix it all together so "we" can claim to have a magic formula? What ever happened to folks just following the directions that are printed on the label of a product that is designed specifically for rearing newborn animals? :confused:

Painted Meadows,
I can not resist the urge of asking this one - do "expensive deer" from "BIG DEER FARMERS" digest their food any differently than cheap deer from LITTLE DEER FARMERS? :D

I just could not resist asking for clarification as I thought a deer was a deer, you know - a doe, a deer, a female deer - regardless of the cost to buy it or who owns it. ;)

---

Folks this is my last comment concerning store bought milk, I am done pleading the cause. If you are using whole milk and you think it is the best thing to come along, then I am happy for you. With that being said, please don't come on here after only feeding it for a few weeks and make it seem as though it is superior to replacers. Whole milk IS NOT EVEN on the same nutritional plain as any of the milk replacers on the market.

It does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out what is more nutritionally sound for your fawns when you compare the two.

Whole milk only has 3-4% protein, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk only has 3.25% fat, whereas most milk replacers have over 20%. Whole milk has "less than" 1% combined minerals, whereas most milk replacers have "over" 2.5% plus, most milk replacers also include microbes to promote and nourish proper rumen and digestive functions.

As Brian pointed out, bloat is also caused by many things "other" than the milk we feed. Sucking air and drinking to fast are among the many other factors that contribute to bloating. Instead of leaving the fawn suck down all 6-8 ounces at once, break it up into smaller portions and give the little booger a breather. That itself will help reduce the chances of bloat, as well as aspiration pneumonia. If you see milk or milk bubbles coming out of the fawns nose, then you are feeding the milk way to fast.

If you are in doubt or left unswayed whether to use whole milk or not, simply ask your Vet if he/she recommends feeding the whole milk and then follow their recommendations.

These are just my opinions of whole milk based on first hand experiences, and experiences of others, and with them I hope I can at least keep just one more person from experiencing malnutrition with their fawns.


Good luck with what ever you choose.
John



.
I am not going to turn this into a big argument on what is better for who.....there are plenty of replacers out there that are just fine...I am also not going to try to make someone feel like a fool by asking them a sarcastic question as John did above.....John she was simply trying to make a point. John while I respect the fact that you are a veteran Deer farmer and you seem to have a great deal of knowledge. That doesn't mean you can't be wrong! I do agree with John that you really don't need to be mixing things like the whole milk with the replacers trying to come up with some perfect milk to feed....follow the instructions on the replacer as that is how it was made to be used........you are going to run in to troubles trying to mix these things together. I will not bash any milk replacers even if i did have some troubles with them as I can't be sure that it was the replacer that caused the problem at that time....there are many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill.......like not cleaning their bedding area often....or their bottles after every feeding......or stimulating them enough......or hundreds of different things........whole milk is being used by many farmers BIG and SMALL and they are having great success with it.......now the same goes for the replacers........John is wrong on his numbers that he qoutes for the whole milk....at least for the whole milk that i use.......the whole milk I use has ....this is per 1 cup serving size....8g of fat 12%.....5g sat. fat 25%......8grams of protien...does not list percentage......sugars 12 grams....sodium 120mg.......vitamin A 6%.....Vitamin C 4%.....Calcium 30%.....Vitamin D 25%......again those numbers based on a 1 cup serving........now I surely won't guarantee that if you use whole milk your fawns won't get sick and I wouldn't guarantee that using replacers either....like i stated above there are so many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill........I will say that I like using a God made product over a man made product as God is the one that created the awesome creatures....he ought to know how to make the milk to feed them......we have a lot of dairy farmers here that use there whole milk to feed their calves and i can assure you they are not malnutritioned...... I also agree asking your vet is a great idea and go by what he or she directs you to do......good luck and my your fawns grow to be big and healthy!!

[John Swank]

If i remember right 3 yrs ago land o'lakes milk replacer showed nutritonal values for mixing with milk or water. The milk mixture was higher for all categories.

This is true Cameron, as you will be picking up or adding the small amounts of protein and fat from the whole milk, whereas water has none.... The mixture with whole milk will have a higher nutritional value when compared to the mixture with just water, if you follow what I am saying.

Look at a cereal box and note the differences between the nutritional values of the cereal and the cereal that has milk added to it. The nutritional values of the cereal with milk increase by the amount the milk is contributing.

I think I need to clarify something. Mixing whole milk with milk replacer is not what I am debating, it is actually a great idea. My debate is with feeding straight whole milk and the nutritional concerns due to the low nutritional values of just plain ol' milk.


.

[Scott Heinrich]

Don't sugar coat it John, tell us how you really feel. By the way, 27 years ago, I used whole milk too. Once they began producing a replacement milk, I was thrilled and had much stronger and bigger fawns as the result of the replacers. I have used Lamnurs, Zoologic, Superior, Lone-Star, Purina, Fox Valley, Goats Milk.......and a lot of others over the years that I can't remember the names of. The bottom line is that all of the replacers gave me bigger body weights, and better year 1 antler growth than I ever experienced with milk even before the caps were red, blue or any other color. Heck, the milk was in cartons and had a corner you unfolded to pour. Maybe its the cap!

[NK Whitetails]

Scott, you have had better luck with the replacers than with goats milk or are you just talking cows milk? Just curious.

[Scott Heinrich]

The replacers have out performed goat's milk, cow's milk both processed and from the dairy, and all of the old concoctions such as karo syrup-evaporated milk-water mixture, etc. I judge the performance with the following criteria....larger body weights, better year one antler development, body fat entering first winter, coat texture and appearance. I have found over the years, digestive problems are more likely caused by parasites, diseases and external factors as opposed to the milk one feeds. Have I had problems in the past with diarreha, coccidiosis, bloat, etc? Sure, but I had those same problems when I first began raising fawns too. If I were to use a natural milk, it would be pasteruized goats milk and I would attempt to find a goat farmer with a Nubian or Alpine herd, as their milks are generally more nutritious than the Spanish, Boer and Pigmy goats.

But again, this opinion is mine and not intended to suggest others are incorrect. I always offer my opinions for consideration, not as gospel.

[NK Whitetails]

Thanks Scott, I just wanted your opinion. We feed pasteruized goats milk from Nubian's. You answered my question thanks!

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

PS if you pay $20,000 -$100,000 for a doe,a deer,a female deer.... is it still just a deer???

[John Swank]

I am not going to turn this into a big argument on what is better for who.....there are plenty of replacers out there that are just fine...

Nor am I DD.... I like a good ol' debate as it cleans out the cobwebs and gets people to say what is really on their minds. We all learn and benefit from it.



I am also not going to try to make someone feel like a fool by asking them a sarcastic question as John did above.....John she was simply trying to make a point.

I know what she was doing DD, and I just want to keep it in perspective. All deer are the same, regardless of whom owns them, what they are fed or how much they cost. Some just grow better antlers than others. :D

Just the same as you and I put our pants on the same each morning, I am no better than you or anybody else on here. We are all EQUAL, regardless of what deer we own or what we choose to feed. I want to make that very clear right here and right now. I started out like everyone else and enjoy learning as I go. If you think that I am looking down on people, you are sadly taking what I write way out of context.



John while I respect the fact that you are a veteran Deer farmer and you seem to have a great deal of knowledge. That doesn't mean you can't be wrong!

Who ever said I was right? I am just stating my opinions like everyone else.




I do agree with John that you really don't need to be mixing things like the whole milk with the replacers trying to come up with some perfect milk to feed....follow the instructions on the replacer as that is how it was made to be used........you are going to run in to troubles trying to mix these things together. I will not bash any milk replacers even if i did have some troubles with them as I can't be sure that it was the replacer that caused the problem at that time....there are many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill.......like not cleaning their bedding area often....or their bottles after every feeding......or stimulating them enough......or hundreds of different things........whole milk is being used by many farmers BIG and SMALL and they are having great success with it.......now the same goes for the replacers........

I agree with you DD however, one fellow that I know read these forums last year and decided to try straight whole milk and ended up with nothing but troubles that a necropsy confirmed was malnutrition linked to the whole milk. Am I wrong for wanting to possibly prevent someone else from having the same problems?

Maybe if someone would take the time to provide an instruction sheet along with the promoting of feeding whole milk, like the amounts per feeding, etc, etc, then people would not run into problems. Instead, they assume you only have to feed 2 ounce per feeding, like replacers, when instead most of people who are feeding whole milk are doubling or even tripling those numbers.

You got to keep in mind, there are a lot of people who just read and do not participate on the forums. If one person jumps off a cliff, it seems like deer farmers will eagerly line up to do it, just so they can say they did it too.




John is wrong on his numbers that he qoutes for the whole milk....at least for the whole milk that i use.......the whole milk I use has ....this is per 1 cup serving size....8g of fat 12%.....5g sat. fat 25%......8grams of protien...does not list percentage......sugars 12 grams....sodium 120mg.......vitamin A 6%.....Vitamin C 4%.....Calcium 30%.....Vitamin D 25%......again those numbers based on a 1 cup serving........

Looks about the same as the milk in the fridge, except I think the percentages you are referring to are the recommend daily allowances based on a 2000 calorie diet, not the actual percentage levels of fat, protein, etc.... If I were on a 2000 calorie diet (more like a 6000 calorie :D) and I would drink 2 cups of milk, I would have reached 50% of my daily allowance of sat. fat for the day. But hey, if you say I'm wrong, then I must be wrong...



now I surely won't guarantee that if you use whole milk your fawns won't get sick and I wouldn't guarantee that using replacers either....like i stated above there are so many factors that can cause your fawns to become ill........

I don't think anyone would make that guarantee as you said, way to many variables.




I will say that I like using a God made product over a man made product as God is the one that created the awesome creatures....he ought to know how to make the milk to feed them......

My thoughts exactly, we should just leave the fawns on mom and let mother nature do what she does best, instead of trying to "play god" by offering a fawn something from another animal that is not even of the same species or has the milk nutritional values of mom...

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a smart ass here, but what you just said makes no sense all, as it takes people to milk the cows, haul the milk to the dairy, people separating the cream, people to bottle the milk, deliver the milk and then ultimately feed it to the fawns. Doesn't seem to be as simple as a fawn sucking milk from a mothers teat... :confused:




we have a lot of dairy farmers here that use there whole milk to feed their calves and i can assure you they are not malnutritioned......

DD, we are raising deer, not cattle. Milking cattle have been bred for hundreds of years to meet the demands of humans, not their calves and surely not the demands of fawns. This is why calves are put on a nutritionally rich "calf starter feed" to help offset the low nutritional value of the milk. Calves will also start eating on their own in just a couple days, unlike fawns that could be a couple weeks.

Look, I am happy for all the new people that got into deer farming. I like watching the industry grow and all the ideas that are shared here. It is kind of like going back in time and witnessing when I and others were starting out and trying to figure out all the mystery questions.

However, you gotta learn to take your bumps and bruises like the rest of us have done when we tried to blow wind up someones ass who has been there and done that... If you think that is a bit harsh, ohh well... I guess that's the price you gotta pay for all the great information on here... I've taken my bumps and bruises when I started out and paid my dues just like the rest of em... I still have a few bumps that NYBill and Thelma inflicted. You should read a couple of the post I made 5 or so years ago when my bottle fed buck attacked me. Come to think of it, I have a few bruises and bumps left from the folks on here over that one too, especially from Steve Kennedy or Scott Heinrich who thought I was still on the roof of the barn with a lap-top.. .... :D


---

PS if you pay $20,000 -$100,000 for a doe,a deer,a female deer.... is it still just a deer???

PM,
If that $100,000 doe would have a visit from a stay dog, would it not stand a chance to die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were accidentally shot in the head with a dart, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were exposed to EHD, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were fed milk a little to fast and got aspiration pneumonia, would she not share the symptoms and risks of death as a $50 doe?

Just because someone forks over $100,000 for a deer, it does not, I will repeat that, IT DOES NOT make that deer any less susceptible to death then a $50 deer. If you are going to have trains, you are going to have wrecks - regardless of how much you spent on the train. That's all I was trying to say.....




.

[John Swank]

But again, this opinion is mine and not intended to suggest others are incorrect. I always offer my opinions for consideration, not as gospel.

Man, can I use that line Scott. Holy - Moly the abuse a guy gets for offering opinions... I surely am not going to start asking what everyone is feeding their bucks over their lactating doe and whether they use creep feeders..... :D

It just might just cause a North Korean stand off or something... Run for the bunker boys..... :eek:


.

[Wooden acres]

Yikes I was going to post , but I think I'll stay out of this one ...lol :)

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I don't see people buying life insurance on wild deer and giving them shots ect....There is a deference from cheap livestock to expensive and you normally work a little harder and more for the more expensive..... One puts a little more in hoping to get a little more out.
I may be wrong... I have never met you, but I do feel you unjustly attack people whom are just offering their opinion.
I have felt this several times reading your posts.
I am sorry I feel different than you on some subjects, but I feel that is what makes being on here a learning experience and don't feel anyone should be attacked for sharing what they feel and believe. We are all on here to help not hurt and degrade each other;)...

[NK Whitetails]

Hey guys I really value your opinions and I am glad that you tell us what you think. We have fed goats milk for 5 years and have always been happy with it. My thoughts were that natural is better. After hearing what you are saying I think that I would like to try a replacer next year and see for myself the difference. You guys have been doing this a lot longer than a lot of us and I know I for one defiantly appreciate your input.

John,
You said "My thoughts exactly, we should just leave the fawns on mom and let mother nature do what she does best, instead of trying to "play god" by offering a fawn something from another animal that is not even of the same species or has the milk nutritional values of mom..." so do you leave you fawns on the doe? I was assuming that you use a replacer but now I am not sure. (not that it matters I was just curious)

[John Swank]

John,
do you leave you fawns on the doe? I was assuming that you use a replacer but now I am not sure. (not that it matters I was just curious)

Most of the fawns, yes. My opinions of bottle feds come from visiting farms and A/I'ing. It just seems that bottle feds are hard to get through the chutes and move from pen to pen, but are usually easier to dart. I like when I can open a gate, walk in and all the deer run from me. Same for running them through a handling facility. It seems like the bottle feds stand there and will look at you instead of trying to get away from you, no matter how you are prodding at her. It just seems as though they cause a lot of hang ups in a handling facility and when moving deer.

If a doe has triplets or I see one of them is not getting the care or attention, then I will pull and bottle feed it. Or if someone wants bottle fed fawns, started on the bottle, I will pull them and start them on the bottle for them. Most of the deer I have are 30 footer - meaning I can get within 30 feet of them before they run.

This is just the way I have found that works for me. Not saying its right or wrong, just what works...

[ddwhitetails]

Nor am I DD.... I like a good ol' debate as it cleans out the cobwebs and gets people to say what is really on their minds. We all learn and benefit from it.





I know what she was doing DD, and I just want to keep it in perspective. All deer are the same, regardless of whom owns them, what they are fed or how much they cost. Some just grow better antlers than others. :D

Just the same as you and I put our pants on the same each morning, I am no better than you or anybody else on here. We are all EQUAL, regardless of what deer we own or what we choose to feed. I want to make that very clear right here and right now. I started out like everyone else and enjoy learning as I go. If you think that I am looking down on people, you are sadly taking what I write way out of context.





Who ever said I was right? I am just stating my opinions like everyone else.






I agree with you DD however, one fellow that I know read these forums last year and decided to try straight whole milk and ended up with nothing but troubles that a necropsy confirmed was malnutrition linked to the whole milk. Am I wrong for wanting to possibly prevent someone else from having the same problems?

Maybe if someone would take the time to provide an instruction sheet along with the promoting of feeding whole milk, like the amounts per feeding, etc, etc, then people would not run into problems. Instead, they assume you only have to feed 2 ounce per feeding, like replacers, when instead most of people who are feeding whole milk are doubling or even tripling those numbers.

You got to keep in mind, there are a lot of people who just read and do not participate on the forums. If one person jumps off a cliff, it seems like deer farmers will eagerly line up to do it, just so they can say they did it too.






Looks about the same as the milk in the fridge, except I think the percentages you are referring to are the recommend daily allowances based on a 2000 calorie diet, not the actual percentage levels of fat, protein, etc.... If I were on a 2000 calorie diet (more like a 6000 calorie :D) and I would drink 2 cups of milk, I would have reached 50% of my daily allowance of sat. fat for the day. But hey, if you say I'm wrong, then I must be wrong...





I don't think anyone would make that guarantee as you said, way to many variables.






My thoughts exactly, we should just leave the fawns on mom and let mother nature do what she does best, instead of trying to "play god" by offering a fawn something from another animal that is not even of the same species or has the milk nutritional values of mom...

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a smart ass here, but what you just said makes no sense all, as it takes people to milk the cows, haul the milk to the dairy, people separating the cream, people to bottle the milk, deliver the milk and then ultimately feed it to the fawns. Doesn't seem to be as simple as a fawn sucking milk from a mothers teat... :confused:






DD, we are raising deer, not cattle. Milking cattle have been bred for hundreds of years to meet the demands of humans, not their calves and surely not the demands of fawns. This is why calves are put on a nutritionally rich "calf starter feed" to help offset the low nutritional value of the milk. Calves will also start eating on their own in just a couple days, unlike fawns that could be a couple weeks.

Look, I am happy for all the new people that got into deer farming. I like watching the industry grow and all the ideas that are shared here. It is kind of like going back in time and witnessing when I and others were starting out and trying to figure out all the mystery questions.

However, you gotta learn to take your bumps and bruises like the rest of us have done when we tried to blow wind up someones ass who has been there and done that... If you think that is a bit harsh, ohh well... I guess that's the price you gotta pay for all the great information on here... I've taken my bumps and bruises when I started out and paid my dues just like the rest of em... I still have a few bumps that NYBill and Thelma inflicted. You should read a couple of the post I made 5 or so years ago when my bottle fed buck attacked me. Come to think of it, I have a few bruises and bumps left from the folks on here over that one too, especially from Steve Kennedy or Scott Heinrich who thought I was still on the roof of the barn with a lap-top.. .... :D


---



PM,
If that $100,000 doe would have a visit from a stay dog, would it not stand a chance to die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were accidentally shot in the head with a dart, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were exposed to EHD, would she not die the same as a $50 doe? If that $100,000 doe were fed milk a little to fast and got aspiration pneumonia, would she not share the symptoms and risks of death as a $50 doe?

Just because someone forks over $100,000 for a deer, it does not, I will repeat that, IT DOES NOT make that deer any less susceptible to death then a $50 deer. If you are going to have trains, you are going to have wrecks - regardless of how much you spent on the train. That's all I was trying to say.....




.
John I respect your opinion and never anywhere above said i didn't........I do not want you to think i am one of those new deer farmers that comes in and thinks he has all the answers..I Surely would not and do not try to blow wind up anybodies ass and I take that as an insult........I only debate when I feel something is getting a bad rap.....and i feel you are giving the whole milk and the people using it a bad rap..who knows maybe it's you doing the wind blowing ..John there is no doubt in my mind you have taken your bumps and bruises and hell I've only been in the business a couple years and have taken some already too....like a 0% conception rate on my Ai deer this year after using thousands of dollars in semen.....I don't blame anyone except myself and chalk it up as a learning (well expensive Learning)experience........The people I happen to know and respect and that have been in this industry for about as long as it started and have taken MORE BUMPS and BRUISES than most....... happen to use the whole milk feeding system for their fawns.....these people have fed more fawns than the majority of the farmers in this industry and know what they are doing when it comes to feeding and caring for their fawns......so i don't want you think I don't care about my fawns and i do research before i adopt a feeding program for my animals.....if this program is good enough for their fawns it's good enough for mine........enough said! As far as your comment on we are feeding fawns not calves I am certian you have used goats milk in the past and the same could be said for that....we are feeding fawns not goats (have no Idea what you call a little goat and don't care). My point about the God thing is he knows what nutrition our animals need as he created them..absolutely the best thing to do is leave them on mom......but not if you don't want them bashing the fences everyday........yes a fawn is different than a calf.....but I can tell you one thing for certian there have been more baby animals of all kinds brought up on cows milk than any other milk out there and many of them survived just fine and were not malnutritioned. finially i want to say that all of this above is merely my opinion and I too offer it for consideration....I do not expect people to take it for gospel. John I am not going to debate this in the open forum any longer as throwing insults does no one any benefits and the readers surely don't need to be in the middle. You have your feeding program your proud of and I have mine I guess we should just respect that!

[NK Whitetails]

Thanks John. That is funny you dislike bottle feds for the same reason that I like them! I would rather have to push them through the chute than have them stressed and hurt themselves. Everyone has there own likes and dislikes, I just find it funny that it is for the same reason.

[John Swank]

I don't see people buying life insurance on wild deer and giving them shots ect....

Its' illegal or I would wager that folks would.... I bet if you search the old forums for people asking what meds they can give the wild deer, you might find some interesting information. Also, look at the millions and millions of dollars that are put into QDMA each year by the hunters who are leasing up ground to "insure" they can keep and grow deer healthy. I can see where you are coming from, sorta.



There is a deference from cheap livestock to expensive and you normally work a little harder and more for the more expensive..... One puts a little more in hoping to get a little more out.

I somewhat agree, but there is no need to underrate the folks that work just as hard to keep a free deer alive. Some folks are not only in this for the money, remember. Some of the folks on here work from their hearts, not their wallets. :rolleyes:



I may be wrong... I have never met you, but I do feel you unjustly attack people whom are just offering their opinion. I have felt this several times reading your posts.

If I remember correctly, in another topic, I offered an honest opinion and several of you jump on me and was claiming I was misleading people. I know what experiences I had, I know what experiences another fellow had, and I offered an opinion to the question asked. Sorry if a few of you didn't like my opinion, but it was my opinion.


I am sorry I feel different than you on some subjects, but I feel that is what makes being on here a learning experience and don't feel anyone should be attacked for sharing what they feel and believe. We are all on here to help not hurt and degrade each other;)...

That's my point... Look, I was just ribbing you and trying to be humorous about the doe, a deer, a female deer thing. The way I took your post about the expensive deer is that you were insinuating that some sort of extra curricular connection or skill level is required to care for an expensive deer from a big deer farmer over that of a cheap deer from a little deer farmer. I was only jokingly pointing out that a cheap deer requires just as much attention and care as an expensive deer and it too can die just the same as a cheap deer, regardless of how much you put into it.

Again a lot of folks, including me, don't really care the about making money from the deer. We do it because we love to do it and put in a hard days work regardless if it is a cheap deer or an expensive deer, and if we make a few "bucks" along the way then its an added bonus. Just because someone spends $100,000 on a deer, it doesn't make the work or effort he/she puts in any more valuable, easier or harder than someone with a $5 deer.

I may come off as this is the right way or the wrong way, but I don't mean to insult anybody. I just write whats on my mind and hope it helps someone learn something new and to look at things outside the box. I mainly try to get folks to think and sometimes that may come off as questioning someones methods. And sometimes, I think back to all the questions I asked on here that were really silly, and just answer them the way I would have liked to have had them answered, even if it means pointing out the obvious in a way that says you dumb @$$, you hit you finger with the hammer. Really, I don't mean any harm by it, its just the way I look at things as I have never been politically correct - I'm just me. :D



Regards,
John

[John Swank]

DD, sorry you took offense to my posts. I too take offense when you say I am misleading people, even though I backed my opinions up with facts.

I am no more giving whole milk a bad rap then you are giving milk replacer a bad rap. Until the day you, or anybody else can lay the nutritional analysis sheets of both whole milk and milk replacer side by side and the whole milk has more nutrients will I line up like a lemming to feed it. Sorry you don't like the facts!!

I also want to remind you that it was you that stated I was telling fish stories early on in another topic. I took it as you being disrespectful and insulting so there's no sense in you back peddling now and saying you respect my opinions. Yea, I may have taken it a little too personal, but none the less you threw the first blow below the belt.

http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=245&page=3 (http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showthread.php?t=245&page=3)

[kydeer]

I did not have time to read every post,so I do not know if anybody said this.To the person who started this thread.I feed fox valley,if I mix it with cold water it froth's up really bad,but if I mix it with warm water it does not.Hope this help's.

[Buckskin]

Just wondering, if a does milk is closer in fat and protein content to cows milk or goats milk or the artficial doe replacer. If it is 20% or more then I think I would worry about the red top or goats milk but if it's closer to 4 or 5% then I don't think I would be calling a fawn malnurished if its getting close to what mama gives it. I am trying superior this year but have raised them on goats milk before and haven"t seen any signs of inferior fawns. Just a thought. Rick

[Bruce]

John,

I looked for your popcorn animation, but this will do.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I was a single mom with kids we love our deer our first deer was a free deer from a deer farmer that sells bucks and had a doe give birth in a puddle and left it for dead...I was up around the clock with that thing it made it and so the addiction began I then bought a deer so she would have a buddy..I than bought a Pied and a fallow lost the fallow on Land o lakes kid replacer got another one but since deer was doing the same thing got on forum figured out why gave vitamin B all better...I then became a mixologist I would add some of this and that and I bought more fawns....I have always had small problems...would read and work through them with the forum and Vet...If I could save one person from going through loosing one deer for not only their selves but the look in your kids eyes when you tell them their deer didn't make it...I have had deer around 7 years now.This past Three Rivers auction I bought new stock I hope to sell some but I still have my cheap herd because we love them I have Three different status herds because we have pets I didn't want to tag till I had to...I have put blood sweat and tears into these deer with no return... other than love for the deer.I am a little deer farmer but don't think just cause it says for deer it is better I have seen this a lot!

I was just stating that my fawns are not malnourished then run and play like nuts they have rounded hips no hip bones "I feel these are my best fawns ever" I was just stating I have talked to 13 deer farmers around me who are feeding red cap and have feed it the last few years...They are big farms and when they switched mid stream in the year...stopped loosing fawns...The next year the had the biggest healthiest deer ever starting out with it...That is all I know!
This is why I do it!

[Paul]

Good Morning Farmer's,
Just a line to sound off....
In the year's i have been on here, I have found out that John Swank, Scott Henrich and Mitch P has had the most information, that i value to be the best, that has saved several of my fawn's.
I would never doubt any thing that they have Posted, to be the best knowledge that that can be taken.
My honest opinion.
Paul
Fair Oak's Farm

[IndependenceRanch]

Hey everyone! Come on let's not fight over this stuff. Everyone here wants the same thing, healthy fawns.
To tell the truth I have not been following this topic very closely. I maybe skimmed over a couple of the posts and have not read them all. And here is why. We all have our own ideas of what works and what doesn't work!
The old saying of ask 10 farmers and you will get 10 different answers. You all remember that?!?!?
We have found what works for us and I will share our thoughts with anyone who calls or emails me, but I won't share it on the forum. Reason why I won't??? Because this topic has many right answers, and everyone has to find what works for them at their farm. So let's just let this topic drop ok guys?

[ddwhitetails]

Roger i agree.......John I apologize (and this is not back peddling it is being a man) if my comment about the fish stories hurt your feelings it was meant as a joke just as your statement about the Expensive big deer farmers and the inexpensive little deer farmers that you said to painted meadows was meant. I do respect your opinions and always have........it is your choice to believe that or not. I love this deer industry and most everyone who is in it.......my goal is not to make enemies but to make friends.......I will continue to give my opinion and it is givin just as that an opinion. I consider this topic dropped and wish the best for everyone and their fawns!!

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Another thing you may want to do if you mix with water is to boil it and let it cool some... to kill everything in it especially if you have a well.I am very cautious and boil bottles and nipples also but that's me?

[Scott Heinrich]

Dennis I remember that experience and sometimes use your example when instructing others with tame bucks. I tell them as far as I know he's still on the barn but I think the battery in his laptop went dead last year. I hope someone brings him something to eat and drink.

[John Swank]

Roger i agree.......John I apologize

And I apologize to you as well...



John,

I looked for your popcorn animation, but this will do.


Bruce, it was crossing my mind that "someone" really needs to post the popcorn dude... :D That made my day right there... :-)

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

The whole deer community needs to be that way I'm not a fighter except when attacked I try to deescalate the situation.But I won't back down either we need to be that way anytime a deer farmer is attacked by words or in other ways.There is no reason not to play nice...
I always say if you go looking for a fight you will find one somewhere.
If you look to help people will help you when needed.
That is my motherly advise for the day:D

[richie0033]

thank you all for the advice. I just wanted to let you all know I decided to use straight red cap milk. My girl is 6 days old and is the biggest healthiest fawn I have had this early. No problems at all. Thanks alot everyone

[iadeer]

What the heck. This red cap shit will kill more fawns than it will save. EVER. I wish you people with all the answers would take the phone call from the people I do after they take the shit advise given on this forum from time to time. I hate posting on here but some of you should stop posting here and find something else to do. John, all that you can do is try to help. People know it all just ask them. They will not listen until all hell breaks loose ans shit is dieing and then the panic takes place. Now too little fat reserves from Red Cap F'in milk and the fawn is dear.

Good luck all you will need it the way some of you sound on here. By the way 29 years bottle feeding fawn. Probably over 500 fawns , but don't beleive me. Ask someone who has had deer for 2 years.

Fred

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Found this looking into things.

Goat * Cow * Human
Protein % 3.0 * 3.0 * 1.1
Fat % 3.8 * 3.6 * 4.0
Calories/100 ml 70 * 69 * 68
Vitamin A (i.u./gram fat) 39 * 21 * 32
Vitamin B1/thiamin (µg/100 ml) 68 * 45 * 17
Riboflavin (µg/100 ml) 210 * 159 * 26
Vit. C (mg ascorbic acid/100 ml) 2 * 2 * 3
Vitamin D (i.u./gram fat) 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.3
Calcium % 0.19 * 0.18 * 0.04
Iron % 0.07 * 0.06 * 0.2
Phosphorus % 0.27 * 0.23 * 0.06
Cholesterol (mg/100 ml) 12 * 15 * 20

[Buckskin]

After some research it seem's that deer's milk is indeed richer than goat or cows milk. Deer milk is 8.2% protein and 7.7% fat. This is probably why the fawns take in twice as much milk than they would off mom to meet their needs if you are feeding goats milk.(or cows milk for that matter). Maybe it's also why they get such a small portion of the replacers in comparison. A mega dose of the replacer I would think would be hard on their young kidneys. After feeding goats milk in the past and deer replacer this year it seems the fawns get hungry alot sooner on the replacer but stools and pees are smaller. Rick

[Liveoak]

Not picking a fight but just offering a thought and an observation. Most people on here are new and each has their own way of doing things that they think is right. Most people dont seem to know how to put a value to the information received on here wether it comes from someone who raises 10 deer a year or if its from someone that raises 100 deer a year, someone thats done it 2 years or 20 years. In my mind this forum is for information but theres a lot of speculation and opinion on here as well as it should be. A person cant take a single post as 100% the absolute way to do things. Its my observation that most of the "new users" dont take the time to anticipate a problem they might have before they start something. They just jump on here and ask a question when something comes up and go with the first or most popular answer they get. If a person took the time to research the old forums and the new ones they would find a lot of answers before they ever had a question to post.

Its one thing to knock red cap milk, its another to knock the people that use it. They made the decision to use it and they'll have to live with the results wether good or bad. The people that use it DECIDED THEMSELVES to use it. No one made them use it. They made that decision based on peoples opinion, facts, and speculation. If a person is not intelligent enough to differentiate the three and use accordingly then they deserve to learn things the hard way. They brought it on themselves so you cant knock the other people that use it or have an opinion about it.

Wether you feed goats milk, replacer, red cap or any combination of the three you're going to eventually have some sort of problem. None of the three alone are perfect and feeding any of them requires additional nutritional support from something else. No matter what you feed you're going to have to supplement something in some way, I believe if you dont then you're asking for trouble. Who's to say the goats milk from supplier A is equivalent to the milk from supplier B? Its my opinion that most people dont take the time to evaluate everything they do before they do it, to me thats the problem, not the product.

I personaly think its good to see some of the new posters challenging the old posters. The products are changing every year and some are getting better because of the challenges brought up on here because we're the people taking the ideas to our local suppliers. There's probably a dozen people on here that I read every post they make because often times there's valuable information there. I do think its wrong for someone to criticize as harshly as Fred did but there are some others on here that seem to enjoy throwing fuel on the fire. This forums changed a lot in the time Ive been reading it, some for the better some for the worse.There's a lot of old timers out that that have learned plenty since they quit posting on here, some of which may contradict something they posted 5 years ago. to me thats the best information. I wish they would come back and post more of their ideas and thoughts. I wish you would post more Fred, but if you do you have to realize there are people on here now that will challenge everything you say. I may be one of em but its not in disrespect, just a push to get more information out of you... Just play fair and be considerate that my son is ten and absorbing everything he reads like a sponge as I'm sure there are plenty of other kids out there that are being brought up in this business and use this forum as a learning tool.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I am not on here to get into a peeing contest I am a girl I squat and can't win...
With that being said, I am stating my opinion with grown adults (And Issac)
All of whom I feel are intelligent enough to make and look into decisions...
I don't feel a forum is for communist /dictators to degrade and attack anyone and everyone that has a different opion...
If there was only one right way why does a forum allow multiple posts?
If all the professional with all the right answers would please write a book...
...I will be the first to buy it ...Until then please let us share without being attacked...
If I am not wrong (WHICH I AM SURE I AM) forums are for everybody (new and old) to share if everyone on there already Knows it all...They wouldn't work well...The same if everybody is attacked no one will post things...That would be bad.
I have talked to many new people who are afraid to post...Wonder why

[John Swank]

After some research it seem's that deer's milk is indeed richer than goat or cows milk. Deer milk is 8.2% protein and 7.7% fat. This is probably why the fawns take in twice as much milk than they would off mom to meet their needs if you are feeding goats milk.(or cows milk for that matter). Maybe it's also why they get such a small portion of the replacers in comparison. A mega dose of the replacer I would think would be hard on their young kidneys. After feeding goats milk in the past and deer replacer this year it seems the fawns get hungry alot sooner on the replacer but stools and pees are smaller. Rick

Great find Rick. I think it is great when someone goes out and researches a topic and then contributes their findings - Good Job ;)

With that being said, we need to keep in mind that nutritional numbers for liquid milk are based on a wet matter basis, not a dry matter basis.

What does this mean?

From my understanding it means that the powdered milk replacer nutritional data is based on dry matter basis. In other words, in order to calculate the true "as-fed", or wet matter basis of replacers, you will need to calculate the amount of water per replacer concentration in order to get the true "as fed" level of the liquid. This is how I understand it anyway.

For example, if you mix 1 part of replacer to 3 parts of water and the dry matter basis of protein in the replacer is 26% (before mixed with water) this would give you somewhere around 8.6% protein on a "as-fed" basis.

With this information, you are able to fluctuate the mixing concentrations to meet the nutritional needs of your fawns or other animals. If you use whole milk or goats milk in place of water, then you will need to calculate in the added nutritional content of these as well, in order to get the true as fed levels. Same goes for fat and other nutrients.

Please don't be confused as I may have led some to believe that fawns are receiving 20+% protein or fat with replacers - they are not unless they are being fed only the milk replacer powder itself. As far as goats milk and cows milk, if one looks into it you will find that milk from sheep is richer and the closest in value to does milk, should someone elect to use it as well, although I wouldnt recommend it.


----

Liveoak,
Very well and respectfully said....

----



Regards to all and can we put this topic to bed?

John



.

[Buckskin]

Thanks for clearing that up(dry vs wet protein). I figured there had to be a reason as that is quite a bit more protein in the replacer and i've herd an overload of protein can harm the kidneys. rick

[iadeer]

:eek:It seems I have lost my tact. If anyone thought I was talking to them personally you are wrong. Live Oak said it much better than I could. People read this forun as if it were the Bible. You experts need to keep that in mind as you give your advise. To blame those who listen to your poor advise is irresponsible on your part.

By the way Dennis I do my research, and will continue till the day I die. Other folks don't have time or know where else to look for GOOD information. Maybe you need to keep that in mind!!!

As for my use of colorful language. Hell, is in the Bible the last I read. Shit, is what deer do many time a day, and F'in, spells nothing. You must be using an imagination for that word.

I know of hundreds of fawns that have already die this year because of bottle feeding problems. For you new people It is by no means easy when shit hits the fan and your babys are sick. Contact your veterinarian, they can help. Most vets. have the ability to take known information from other speices and use that to help your fawn(s).

Red cap milk has less than half the required nutrients need to properly keep a fawn healthy. don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing the best for the fawn. Starvation hurts!!!

Milk Replacers, for the most part serve as good nutrient replacements to the does milk.

Pasturized goat milk also works well. Many time as pointed out by others. it can be hard to find, and you have no control over the health of the herd of goats. Pasturization is a must, other wise you are exposing your deer to what ever health problems the goats may have.

I know fellows that use whole Jersy milk. Much higher in fat and protien than Holstien milk (most common dairy cow), that get along well with it.

Deer are classified as small ruminants. The milk stage of their live is short lived. The sooner you get your fawns eating anything the better for the fawns it will be.

I still mean Good Luck!!! everyone needs some from time to time.

fred

[John Swank]

:eek:It seems I have lost my tact.

Nah Fred, I don't think you lost your tact, just a new breed coming along. I think we will soon need to adjust though, as I heard the bottom fell out of the Emu and Alpaca markets... :D



No pun intended towards anybody - it's just an ol' sayin is all....

[B_Whitetails]

Fred, I was wondering what worked best for you such as replacer, nipples, etc. over the years? Thanks

[Liveoak]

John,

I believe youre right on the dry matter protein. Which leads me to a question/theory. If a fawn is getting between 4-8% protein from the milk the first two weeks and then we introduce alfalfa and pellets (14-20% protein) to the fawn, plus most pellets consist of about 8% fiber, arent we encouraging scours and stomach issues at an early age? Would it be better to start a fawn on a pellet with about 10-12% protein and maybe 2-4% fiber to help ease the fawn into a regular pellet at weaning? Has anyone tried or talked this over with a nutritionist before?

The fawn pellet we use is 20% protein and I know theyre growing animals but I dont even feed the mature deer a 20% pellet. Just a thought and wondering if you or anyone else had given it any thought or research.......

[ikoff]

Why can't we just all get along? Why? Why?:(

[virgil]

Nothing wrong with new ideas just cause some just started posting on here doesn't mean they are new to deer farming. there are many ways to do many things if red cap is so bad why don't some of you guys puting it down tell what happens when you use it evidently you have tried it and had some bad experiances. This is my first year using it so far working great fawns are 4weeks old and much bigger than ones on mothers that are close to same age. Quit blowing smoke and give some examples of your experiances and please try to help out one another . I don't care what the lable says i care about the final out come so far i'm impressed and is much easier i started using cause i now some old timers using for years and thier fawns are always big and healthy. maye you now something they don't please tell i'm listening. Ps,no need for foul langage either.

[John Swank]

John,

I believe youre right on the dry matter protein. Which leads me to a question/theory. If a fawn is getting between 4-8% protein from the milk the first two weeks and then we introduce alfalfa and pellets (14-20% protein) to the fawn, plus most pellets consist of about 8% fiber, arent we encouraging scours and stomach issues at an early age? Would it be better to start a fawn on a pellet with about 10-12% protein and maybe 2-4% fiber to help ease the fawn into a regular pellet at weaning? Has anyone tried or talked this over with a nutritionist before?

The fawn pellet we use is 20% protein and I know theyre growing animals but I dont even feed the mature deer a 20% pellet. Just a thought and wondering if you or anyone else had given it any thought or research.......

Steven,
I see where you are coming from and that is a great question. On the surface it seems like a logical and methodical approach.

I got an eye opener two years ago when I was in Mexico A/I'ing for a ranch. During the visit the owner took me on a tour and was showing me all the wild vegetation that was growing and available to the deer.

Honestly, I guess from being born and raised in the Appalachian Hardwoods, the only thing I saw there were a bunch of "jaggers and thorns". :D To my surprise though he started naming off all the different jaggers and telling me the nutritional content of them. I could not believe that the majority of them were well over 30% protein. :eek:

This got me to thinking about the 16% or 20% protein available in "most" commercial feeds. Now, if the native deer in Piedras Negras, Mexico were consuming native vegetation mostly in excess of 30% protein, why are we only feeding 16%? To this day I am still trying to figure that one out.. :confused:

I think it is a really good question you asked and I think it would be best left to a nutritionist or veterinarian to answer, in my opinion. I don't want to lead you or anyone else in the wrong direction with just a guess...



.

[ZZ Whitetails]

I think this thread is great! I read deer farmer because whitetails are my passion, and use it for a form of entertainment. (I don't get out much) It was good when John came on but know with Fred it got better! You must not know Fred if you think you will hurt his feelings, he's pretty thicked skinned! Haven't used cow milk but last year and the year before went to see fawns at peoples ranches that did and came to my own conclusion. Thought about useing it because of cost. Spent over $25'000 on goat milk and replacer last year alone so beleive me when I say my eyes were wide open. Some of the fawns thrived on it but saw alot of small skinny fawns that didn't. Later seemed to have alot of broken bones. From the milk I don't know. Raised as many or more fawns than anyone in the world so I think I know what I'm looking at! Kids have been raised on formula for years and in my opinion that sucks, so I'm not saying it can't be done just don't beleive it is the best! No disrespect ment just one old "fading" mans opinion! Keep it coming that's good entertainment! Get your armor out and smile!!! ZZ

[ikoff]

I agree ZZ. I think we all have to be a little thick skinned and try to not take things so personal. This forum is great entertainment but I can get alot of information and advice. I started out 3 years and didn't know what I was doing so I can and have learned alot. It seems like I learn a whole lot more from my mistakes than I do from what I am doing right. The range of farmers on here is big, from those that are just starting out with 1 or 2 deer to those that have 100s or 1000s. That is what makes this site cool! I always hope to get my daily laugh and a little info from here.

[brianjames]

I agree with ZZ. It seems sometimes people are afraid to say what they really mean for fear of offending anyone. If people get this offended about what they feed thier fawns, imagine how offended someone could get when we criticize the antler or passdown caracteristics of thier favorite "super sire." I would like to see more types of these disussions without everyone getting so defensive all the time.

OK! off to feed 103 fawns! See Ya!

[Isaac@AppleCreek]

Good morning Brian & ZZ my father meet both of you this spring in Texas and Missouri. Many of our practices today are based on the great advice you both gave. I would just like to say getting up at 5:00Am to go bottle feed is a bit early, not complaining but could you please please consider the youth.

[CameronCrow]

Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute in Kingsville, TX and Texas Parks and Wildlife researched the optimal level of protein needed for a deer to reach its full potential. This number was 16%, for that the rest falls on the ground for you to step in. It is their opinion that the reason why most feed companies sell over 16% is customer demand. Feed companies are not trying to sell to the deer they are trying to sell to the ranch owner. Just like at Bass Pro Shop when the lures are all shiny and the packages are attention grabbers, 20% and 24% protein levels are to sell the ranch owner.

[Liveoak]

Cameron,

Do you know of anyone that offers less than a 20% fawn pellet? Ive read the research you spoke of and our main pellets are 15 and 16%. We tried Angelo Pellets fawn extender pellet last year and the deer prefered that over our regular pellets which I believe was more of a taste issue because of the minimal milk replacer added to the pellet. During the transition, mostly weeks 4-7, when they began eating more of the pellets the stool went from being pelleted to toothpaste like. We treated the symptom with the usual pumpkin in the bottle because the stool samples evaluated didnt show any reason to use anything else. The records are accurate that 86% of our fawns went through this 2-3 week phase. With a percentage like that it just got me to thinking it may have been the pellet and pellet intake.

Palmers can make a 14% pellet but it will be a 5/16 pellet because of the ingredients and binder. Its been my experience the fawns prefer a smaller pellet. This year I'm trying the superior pellet and the AP pellet to compare the results, both of which are 20%....

Monty, didnt you guys have AP try to make you a fawn pellet a couple years back? I'd like to hear what pellet you feed or prefer, or any thoughts you might have when you get up tonight.

[CameronCrow]

I recommend Moorman's TraceMax Fawn Starter. Even though it has 20% protein, it has other things that I like in terms of direct fed microbials, Premidex that helps with gut microflora, and Citristem for body temp regulation. I believe it is the best on the market. Give me a call and I would love to talk with you about it and get you in contact with them, they are great guys. I just had them out at the ranch Thursday. If I don't answer my cell try the ranch office @ 325-985-3590.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Isaac, if I remember right I met you in Tx. to. If I ever posted something that offended you I apoligize to you and your dad Scott. I have respect for the whole crew of apple creek from Kevin, Darrel, Todd, Mike and some that I can't remember there names. Great deer minds that I consider freinds! Steve, Angelo Pellet had a contract with Max Rax to make there feed, which is the only feed I let in the barn, But they were fradulent in there mix and admitted it with a smerk on there face! Wouldn't trust the whole bunch of em! Used there mix for about half a season noticed I wasn't getting the results that I normally did so started haveing it tested and came back 3 times not what I paid for. Wouldn't Buy a bag of corn from them! ZZ

[ZZ Whitetails]

Reread my post from last night on cow milk and didn't mean to offend anyone. Just my opinion but nothing to base it on. Hope it works for everyone using it and want to hear your results good bad or ugly! It goes along with what feed you use. If your happy with it who cares what ZZ or Fred thinks. Hope to learn from you! Don't mean to be arrogant, but I'm in the Tx. market and if you don't have a little arrogance about you they'll chew you up and spit you out! So please keep us posted on results. I'm always willing to learn from anyone who has 1 deer or 100. ZZ

[ddwhitetails]

Thanks ZZ.......I will be honest my fawns are doing great on the cows milk but i am having a problem with the scours.......they are eating an acting fine but just have loose stools......what do you think this is from? I'm giving them albon and panecure right now in case it's worms.....probably give them some pepto and pum[kin if it persists......not all the fawns are having problems just a handful....the stools are watery and yellowish in color.....let me know if you have any thoughts....

[ZZ Whitetails]

Dennis, if it smells pewtred it could be ecoli and your treating it right. If it doesn't smell awful take them off of milk for 24-36 hours and give them water ONLY. Don't mix it 50-50 or add anything to it. Give some pumpkin between feedings if you can't stand it, that should make you feel better! They can go that long without hurting them. What your trying to do is helping them clean out their system. You should see improvement in 24 hours. I would stay away from pepto and the other human meds. If worst comes to worst use Condics old remedy of 17% iodine wound tincture from your vet like Jay said. 1/2 cc in bottle until solid. Make sure it's 17% wound ticture. Try a couple on water first and see what happens. These other guys have some good ideas to that work for them that I haven't tried. The more drugs we put in them sometimes hurts more than helps. Help them clean out with water first and go from there! Keep us posted, and see what these other guys would do. ZZ

[Buckskin]

ZZ, I think only a fool wouldn't listen when some of you older than dirt guys start giving advise. Your years of experience coupled with the sheer number of cases you've seen of the different ailments alone should have people perking up your ears when you speak. If some people don't want to take the advice so be it but please keep posting whenever you get a chance. Thanks Rick PS If you take a look at my picture on my profile you will see where I heard that older than dirt comment. Yea thats right, they were saying it to me.

[Gaylen C]

I have talked to several people that are feeding red cap this year, and all are having the same problem. SCOURS!!! For that reason alone I would not even think about going this route with my fawns. Personally I believe when people are feeding red cap, they are pushing the oz's down the fawns way too hard to try to make up for what protein, bf, etc. it is lacking. And what happens when you eat too much of one thing. SCOURS!!!

As deerfarmers we have many diffenrent options we can use when it comes to what we feed our fawns. Goats milk and a slew of milk replacers ( designed specifically for whitetails). What works for one may not work for another. People need to be careful of bandwagoning and jumping on the lastest feeding fad. If red cap really worked so well don't you think it would have been used a long time ago, and many would be still on it today?

People should listen to those that were in the deer business long before we were. Their knowledge and experience alone is enough for me. They know what works and what doesn't!

Again this is just my opinion and thoughts. No more no less.

[Isaac@AppleCreek]

Isaac, if I remember right I met you in Tx. to. If I ever posted something that offended you I apoligize to you and your dad Scott. I have respect for the whole crew of apple creek from Kevin, Darrel, Todd, Mike and some that I can't remember there names. Great deer minds that I consider freinds! Steve, Angelo Pellet had a contract with Max Rax to make there feed, which is the only feed I let in the barn, But they were fradulent in there mix and admitted it with a smerk on there face! Wouldn't trust the whole bunch of em! Used there mix for about half a season noticed I wasn't getting the results that I normally did so started haveing it tested and came back 3 times not what I paid for. Wouldn't Buy a bag of corn from them! ZZ

Hi ZZ, you are right we met you at the TDA show in Grapevine. Do you remember how long it took us to set up that complicated booth? You have never offended us here. We have great respect for your wisdom in bottle feeding. Is it possible to pull all your past posts on bottle feeding, combine it in a book to sell to new farmers like us. This would be a great value for people on whitetail Exchange. Thank you for sharing.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Dennis my deer are doing good no scours...I have a buck fawn that when I pulled him on day two his ears were more droopy eyes not real clear...I have never used albon I couldn't find the liquid...I have always used Sulmet 12.5%...I supplement him with bovetec replacer in my whole milk.(just for medicine)
If you want I could get you a little for him.He should drink it.
Has he been eating dirt or do you still use probiotics of any kind?
I mix it in my milk once a day.

[brianjames]

Sometimes with loose stools you just need to be patient. If they are acting and drinking fine, I usually write it down when they have a loose stool and wait. If they don't clear up within a couple of feedings, then I may choose to do something. If everything else is fine it usually firms up on its own. Acting lethargic, or not drinking well, usually worries me more than loose stools.

I don't feel like I know as much as some older farmers on here that bottle feed, but I think I have been successful at bottle feeding because I take notes on troublesome fawns when I feed, I keep everything neat and tidy, and I'm pretty anal about everything.

This year, I am doing quite a bit of fawns. I have 117 in the barn. I thought I would have more trouble, but so far (knock on wood) they are in tip top shape! Wish me luck, and good luck to all of you as well.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Brian... I feel the same way, I don't think everyone's definition of scours is the same.But I note every fawn's movements...Color, consistence,a lot...a little...everything. My book looks like this.
Fawn#3
8oz 6am
pooped a little
green pellets

[ZZ Whitetails]

DD, keep offering water every couple of hours,(warm same as milk would be) keep hydrated. Or everytime you walk by offer water. If it doesn't work try one of these other peoples ideas. We go 5 days on meds and most of the time we go 7. If it persist we carry on for 10. Need to tell everyone my best doe (highroller daughter) was raised on cow milk, so it can't all be bad! The guy that raised her has used cow milk for 5-6 years. I think it goes by individual animal, some can handle it and some can't. Have fawns that can't handle 50-50 goat-powder mix but do fine on straight goat. And no I haven't seen it all and I'm learning every day with you! ZZ

[IndependenceRanch]

I am trying to only give my opinions through emails and talks on the phone now, but earlier a comment was made about using iodine tincture. It was stated to use 17%, but I think the person may have slipped when they said that. If I recall correctly it is 7% tincture iodine. If everyone wants to check their notes and see what they have... I could be wrong.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Roger, that person that slipped as you say would be me, and thanks for catching my error! You can use my name Roger I won't bite you. 7% is correct I don't beleive they make a 17%. Thanks again Roger but next time call me out no ill feelings, I consider you a freind and I respect you and Laurie both for your knowledge. Thanks for catching that! ZZ

[IndependenceRanch]

Ok ZZ. You are a good friend, just don't want to rub anyone wrong.