Average shooter prices

[virgil]

What is every one getting or giving on average for shooter bucks they are selling. Also how much are preserve owners selling their hunts for. Seems to me no one wants to pay crap for shooters here in PA but when I look at web sights for the preserves prices are the same.

[ddwhitetails]

Buyers market.....

[The Roberts Ranch]

Wouldn't know....Seems like the preserves here in Ohio are not buying...And from what I have heard, the deer they are buying they are stealing at the prices they are paying.

I don't know if this is completely true but I heard they were paying $750 for a 150-160 buck. :eek:

I have no testing status, so I am having a heck of a time selling so that I can start over with a tested herd....My fault should have done it right 8 years ago. :mad:

All I can do is learn from my mistakes !

[RLAwhitetails]

I dont have any to sell but one man I know has 4 to sell not big 130's up to 150's was offered 300 each for them. Know of a nice looking 200+ (214)typical that was sold for 4500, wish I had known he was being sold I would have gave that and used him as a breeder this year.

[ddwhitetails]

Yep folks and its only going to get worse before it gets better we need to focus on our future and how we can increase the demand for the product we are producing.....only one answer....more hunters!!! Sign the petition on the other thread and join Nadefa!!!!

[wildobsessionwhitetails]

like in the earlier post its true seems to be a buyers market some guys will still get good money for there deer while others wont and it seems like the guys that are paying decent money want to pay as they get killed with no strings attatched if they get killed prior to the deer being killed like said on another tread for the guys who its still taking 3 to 4 years to grow a 140 youll never get your money back out of the deer so take advantage and buy better genetics faster maturing its seems like the breeding stock prices are off as well unless like the old saying goes you can only get out of it what its worth and maybe thats all alot of these deer are worth at the auctions and with more and more deer farms showing up true prices are finally being exposed

[ddwhitetails]

There is no big secret to how it all works...we are know different than any other market out there......supply and demand without the demand there is no need to supply.........we need to drive the demand up!!! we must!!

[fars]

Only offers we have had is $2000 for 205"+ bucks if they have a good look to them. Nothing else is moving.

[richie0033]

That's horrible. No way you should sell it for that

[Buckskin]

It wrong but I have been told that if you don't sell for these bargin basement prices they will find someone that has too. It gets worse too as some of the preserves have effidently agreed not to bid against each other. Makes it kind of hard to get behind promoting their preserves with our hard earned money. Iv'e noticed that their hunt prices aren't suffering too the same degree as ours. Rick

[fars]

In defense of the preserves they have alot of overhead costs and if hunt bookings are off 50% like I hear they are, then I can understand why they can't lowered their prices. They need every cent to stay open. I understand that.
However, I won't sell for those prices, so I have been butchering. If nothing else I'll have alot of venison and some nice 180-250 class heads for the living room.

[CameronCrow]

Texas market is around 60% of the average hunt price for that animal. I've bought deer this year for 160s-180s for $1500 and 130s-mid 140s for $800 but those are good finds.

[Buckskin]

I fully understand that some of their cost have gone up and have not begrudged then makeing 55 or 60 percent of the hunts cost. However all I'm saying is that they aren't selling a 160 class deer hunt for $1200 so why do they offer us 350 or maybe 500 for a 160 class deer? It's like I said its because they know that somebody will have to sell and they kind make alittle (or alot) extra on that hunt at our expense. Rick

[ddwhitetails]

Buckskin I hear your frustration believe me......I frustated as all heck too!! However, they (preserve owners) know that it is a buyers market right now and know they can make a larger profit for their hunts by buying bucks a bargian prices.....it this thier fault? No.....they are struggling too and their bookings are down so if they can make more dollars per hunt then this will help them stay a float.....everyone is doing what they have too to survive the bad economy as well as the flooded market.......I am sorry i know some out there disagree with my feelings on a flooded market but i just don't understand if you re involved in the industry to any extent how you could not see there is an over abundance of whitetails at the moment. I am dine trying to point fingers folks........turn the finger right back at yourself because if you are a part of this industry then you sre s psrt of the industry failing.....we NEED to ban together and do what is needed to get our sales back up to the level that they once were and actually get them much higher!!

[richie0033]

That's true and also the cost or raising the deer have gone up. Things need to change soon or nobody will be left in business. Doesn't matter how much money you got. If you keep losing every year, eventually you will go Broke!

[midwest]

I don't farm or have a preserve, but I film in them alot and talk to the preserves at shows all the time. The way I see it is. a lot of them have started to grow there own, so they don't need to buy from a farm. Or if they buy deer as needed, they don't have the overhead on that deer. 180"+ is what the majority of the hunts are. Like anything else in a bad economy the people with money can spend it where the ones hurting are saving. It sounds like the market is flooded with "shooters", and I don't see a way your going to change prices. Just like anything, the supplier (farmer) doesn't get rich its the seller who does.

[crocket]

gee, thanks guys ,what a time to get in to this busis, BUT i love white-tailes , i dont make a liven out of it ,, but i would almost go as far as say its a sickness the them ,, i love my white tails , dont even care much to hunt them any more, boy if my wife ever read this ???

[RLAwhitetails]

As long as they can buy the deer cheap they will. Why would a preserve pay us what they are worth if we are willing to sell them for way less. Or are they even worth what we think they are, a lot of big deer out there. All I know is feed is high, cant give does away (unless high quality breeders) shooters are cheap. A lot of $$$ out and not much coming back. But hey it's still fun to raise deer.

[virgil]

I see nobody wants to post how much they are willing to pay for shooters. Must mean some feel guilty for selling deer to new guys and then not giving them crap for the shooters they produce. If all who raised shooters would hold fast to their prices then the preserves would have no choice but to pay a fair price. The longer you hold on to your deer the more they are worth. Come December preserves are in need of good deer and they are hard to come by. So if your not getting fair prices just hang on good things come to those who wait.

[WICKED WHITETAILS]

I just sold my first shooter and I got what I thought was a good price. He is an est. 180s and I got $3600. I thought I did pretty good. But I will tell you this if you think ppl are going to be beating down your door to get your bucks you got another thing coming. I did alot of calling, emailling, advertising, and telling anyone and everyone that would give me a second that I had a buck to sell.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

This buck is available AFTER November 24th. I intend on using him as a breeder one more season. Unless you are in need of a breeder buck yourself then come get him now for $15,000. After the 24th, he will be cheaper.

Jeff 573-517-1865

His sire is Loyd Ervins "Jesse" son of "Larry"
His mother is a "5Brow" daughter "5Brow" is out of "Hydro Ax's" mother.

[washington]

I don't raise whitetails or own a preserve but I am often a viewer of this site. The deer biz is no different than anyother,and there are some cold hard facts you breeders need to face...you need to pin point your market, by that I mean the market is flooded with large deer over 200" that people whom have dispensible cash at their finger tips in a down market will still buy at fair prices. BUT those people are few and far between in this economy. WHAT YOU NEED TO FOCUS (PIN POINT) ON is the shooter market for working class hunters whom can still scrap $800-$1000 together for a deer hunt even in a down turned economy. Better to sell a dozen 130-150" 1 1/2 -3 year old bucks @ say $500-$1000 every year that one 5 year old 200" buck every other year for $3000
Invest cash in a fenced preserve..by either going with a partner whom has a shooting preserve or converting 100 acres of your own land into a decent hunting grounds an focus your sales towards the working man rather than the dr.& lawyer types. Give the working man a decent place to hunt so he feels he has hunted his buck and not sat in a pen and killed a pet, give him a hunt for a 140" buck for $1200, and you'll sell out every year. Instead of bitching about preserve owners buying from you like a flock of vultures beat them at their own game.If you can't go it alone to open a preserve then get a groyup of breeeders together sign the legal agreements and run your own preserve.....trust me the working class hunters will come.

[IndependenceRanch]

Sell a dozen 130"-150" bucks at $500 to $1000 each per year. And how does a person pay the insurance and the property taxes? Not even talking about the expense of having raised those bucks and fed their mothers the whole time. Or paid for the lodging and food for the hunters. How about all the permit fees we pay the state each year? How about the cost of having the head of each buck harvested sampled and tested by the state for CWD? The local vet charges over $100 per hour just for that process which is a state mandated requirement. And at what point does a person recoup the cost of all the fence it took to fence in that 100 acres? I dare say that is another $40K or more to have that done. I don't think folks realize the costs that all add up to put on a hunt.

[washington]

Look Roger everyone one that operates a business has overhead, I have it as well but the gist of your rant revolves around the very problem I was pointing out to you. It's really very simple when broken down...volume. I doubt you ever got into whitetail raising thinking it was a short term money maker. What I suggested are basic business management practices, ie. if you have too much invested as an individual in fence around your hunting preserve why not remove that fence and pool it with another breeder? Nothing is etched in stone if you can't feed and lodge hunters at the start up make arrangements for a good rate with a local B&B or motel and diner pass that onto the hunter. I'll bet the motel owner will be more than willing to offer special rates for your clients in return to fill empty rooms...I know I would.
Your commodity/niche market in this down turn an depressed market is the appeal to the "Average Joe Hunter" whom still has a decent paying job but doesn't wish to spend $3-5K on a mid west free range hunt but will spend $1000-$1500 for a good high fence hunt for a decent buck..go with that ...or you could sell your does for meat at $175-$200 apiece IF you can find a buyer so you do not have to feed them another year hoping the market will change.... On my desk right at this moment i have a report that basically reads the current down swing has yet to bottom out and will have a min. of 7 more years before any serious up turn takes place...how much feed will those does eat in 7 more years???????
Take the advice or leave it, matters little to me.

[ddwhitetails]

Washington you bring up some great advice......but Roger does as well........you very easily have about 300 dollars a year in raising a whitetail buck or doe.......so at 3 years of age thats 900 just to raise the buck for three years (not including if he got sick and needed extra care) now add in the mother as she needs fed too........(lets just solit it in half since they often have twins) so that would be another 450 to add in bringing the cost up to 1,350.00.........there is no way you could (Raise) the deer and sell them for that kind of money (500 - 1500) and stay in business. Also at a lower dollar you need to up the number of hunts you need to make money.....you only have about a four month window in which you can sell deer hunts as well......that leaves you 120 days...divide that by three (most hunts are three day hunts) leaves you 40 hunts.....(unless your preserve is really large and you can have multiple hunts at one time......that is not many hunts to work with...........40 hunts at 1000 dollars is only 40,000 dolllars....factor in all expenses and you will be in the red..........I do understand where you are going with your idea Washington and tink it is a good one......just don't think you could sell for as low as you are saying.

[IndependenceRanch]

Dennis you explain that well.

Washington I can appreciate your effort even though I don't agree with your numbers. They are simply just too low to be viable.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I would sell for that price all day long!!!Being a little farm with low numbers and with good blood to make shooters in 2 yrs sounds good to me!!! I would much rather move 10 a year and make 15grand than have them fighting or getin sick or lose them some other way.I guess that way it would pay to be small and have a low overhead!!!

[ddwhitetails]

Mike you grow 10 a year and they are all 150's at two years old............ you are way selling yourself short.........But if your doing it and want to give up your secret I would love to know how!!!! plus i just might be one of your biggest buyers at that price!!!

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I sure wouldn't want to HAVE to sell at that price!!! I know ny says i can only have so many deer so they either have to go or i dont breed anything at all so i can stay under my number.Either that or put up more fence and the way this bizz sounds that is not gunna happen soon.I know up here i hear alot of people say they would not hunt behind a fence and some say its because of the price of the deer.I know to each their own and i am fine with what anybody wants to do but people complain that they cant sell even good deer but their next sentence they say they are breeding a bunch of does this year.I know things are bad in this world now and just mabey a working man buck could work for some ranches.I have not been here long enough to make 10 shooters yet but i know i was one of the ones that spent quite a few grand to get in this bizz and to get good blood.This year yearlings are 130plus so i sure hope they will push 200 at 2!! If not i guess i bought the wrong blood and with the prices of great blood and the number of huge yearlings out there i would say the sky is the limit!!!!

[washington]

I was away hunting free range whitetails for a few days.
I will add to the mix many of you do not think there is a market for hunting <140" deer and you're wrong. I know many hunters whom come into my shop each week that would do a high fence hunt for a 120-130" buck for around $1500 every year provided they felt there was a hunt to the harvest and not sitting in a small 50 acre pen with hand fed deer..THAT IS THE NICHE MARKET YOU GUYS ARE MISSING.

[ddwhitetails]

Washington,
you must not have read a lot of our posts on here.......no one said they did not believe there would be a market for the 120 -140 inch bucks for 1,500 dollars.......but your not hearing us when we say there is quite a bit of cost for raising these animals...and at that price your not making a dime. Maybe if feed costs would go down drasticslly as well as meds....then maybe this could be something one could focus on.

[washington]

Washington,
you must not have read a lot of our posts on here.......no one said they did not believe there would be a market for the 120 -140 inch bucks for 1,500 dollars.......but your not hearing us when we say there is quite a bit of cost for raising these animals...and at that price your not making a dime. Maybe if feed costs would go down drasticslly as well as meds....then maybe this could be something one could focus on.


What I read were posts that ring of "everyone agrees there needs to be changes to the biz but no one is willing to make them". Breeders are an independant lot and seem to be willing to muddle along making ends meet with memories of past high end market days still in their minds hoping it will once again rebound to that point......that isn't going to happen without true change to the way the biz is run., ie. instead of 1 breeder buying a truck load of feed 5 buyers should buy a train car load of feed ..does that sound familar? kind of like Walmart logic?????? Like it or not your market has peaked everyone saw $$ in growing 200"+ deer to the point the market is flooded and buyers yawn at them today. The industry can still make money but it will need to adjust to their buyers market.
15 years ago I bought out my family's sport shop and worked 70 hrs a week to turn a slim profit yearly..today after radical changes that my father deemed foolish, sure to bankrupt me I own 10 shops and no longer work.

[ddwhitetails]

Washington,
I hear you and I agree with a lot of what your saying........You are absolutely right about where are market is and if you read a lot of my past posts you will see i have been saying the same thing. I am looking at ways to try and get my feed costs down and yes buying in bulk is one way.....problem is most farmers have their own feed mixes and don't want to share what they are........you are right in that a lot of these farmers are going to quit living in the past as things have changed and WE the industry need to change with them.............washington I too am a successful business man and took over my fathers company with my brothers......we grew the business to a very large size and sold a portion of it.........I'm doing ok myself........Washington, I do wish a lot of the people in this Industry would quit sittting on their hands and pretenting that there are no problems when there clearly are.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Anyone have a train car for sale?

[WillPenn Whitetails]

Shooter prices have really come down especially in ohio. If you have a preserve in ohio your going to make about 70% more than anyone else can make because they only buy off of people that are willing to sell there deer for $500 or less. On some farms in some different states you can buy 200 inch deer for $800. And there going to shoot it for $8000. This year if you talk to almost anyone that has a preserve in PA there probably going to say they lost a couple hunters to OHIO.

200" stocker bucks for $800! Really?

[SJames]

I'll take a thousand at double the price!!! :D:D:D

Of course delivered! :p

Score does matter!!!

[The Roberts Ranch]

I will take a couple 200" shooters at $800, and hold on to them until the market picks up. I am in Ohio and I have not seen this. The price has been way down but I do not think that low.

[foodplot]

I will take a few at that price.

[Cactus King]

I'm not a deer breeder, but I am a serious deer hunter. If this season any of you deer breeders have 190"+ deer available and you are selling them for under $2000 like has been posted in this thread, then please let me know. If you have a place to let them loose, and if they arent tame, then I'll be happy to fly up there and shoot one or two :)

and I'm being serious

[Hardpan]

Hi Washington,
There is a market for 125s at $1500. But, there is no profit. Just like there is a market for $2.00 gas... BTW, I charge $1500 for a 125. But, the deer must be at least 4 years old, and therefore has some pretty off genetics, so you are hunting a true cull. In our area, 125s are pretty common without any high fence, feeding etc..
hardpan

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Amen to that Rick!

[CMore]

What I read were posts that ring of "everyone agrees there needs to be changes to the biz but no one is willing to make them". Breeders are an independant lot and seem to be willing to muddle along making ends meet with memories of past high end market days still in their minds hoping it will once again rebound to that point......that isn't going to happen without true change to the way the biz is run., ie. instead of 1 breeder buying a truck load of feed 5 buyers should buy a train car load of feed ..does that sound familar? kind of like Walmart logic?????? Like it or not your market has peaked everyone saw $$ in growing 200"+ deer to the point the market is flooded and buyers yawn at them today. The industry can still make money but it will need to adjust to their buyers market.
15 years ago I bought out my family's sport shop and worked 70 hrs a week to turn a slim profit yearly..today after radical changes that my father deemed foolish, sure to bankrupt me I own 10 shops and no longer work.

That sounds like what im into with my dad i have the deer on his land so every change i go to make has to go though him and it has cost me to the point i just want to quit, seems like were fighting it out all the time.

[sharkey]

We go through a boom bust about every 15 years down here with deer.
The small hobbie farms which appear to break even,seem to keep at least 100 breeding girls.I think you would need at least 500 and a very strong appreciation of deer to cover costs & make wages.
We have eight species & several subspecies in Aus,with red/elk & fallow the most common,followed by rusa,chital,hog,sambar & sika.
Reds are popular/common, because they return on venison,velvet & trophys,& are easy to handle.Fallow, venison & trophys,& again the farming requirements are easy.
Hog deer became a bit of a speciality & the getting price was about $5000 a pair,now its $1000 each & dropping fast,as they become more common & have little value for alternate income.
I should only comment on what its like here,but, I can see price getting weaker as supply peaks,the small(hobbie)guys will sell cheap as they have other incomes.The larger guys who can afford to deversify & adapt (venison,velvet,processing,including others deer)will hang in.Every one else may have cattle,sheep & goats behind deer fence (been to NZ recently?).
If you arent growing your own grass & feed??
Hand rearing fawns??
Then 15 years later, the cycle begins again,seen it twice.
Did I mention the price of deer & products are steadily increasing here?
Hope to see as many of you as possible at the top of the next bell curve.
Cheers Sharkey

[fars]

Sharkey,

We have similar boom bust cycles here in the USA. However, I don't think the prices will ever rebound to what they once were. Look at ostriches..are they back to $50,000 for a pair? Nope that's water under the bridge.
The real problem is the inflation to the feed prices. In combination with the current "bust" cycle it's just plain going to make deer farming unprofitable for the foreseeable future.

[sharkey]

Those who grow their own feed,& can find new & more markets will do best.
If you can't grow grass, you cant grow deer, profitably.
Cheers Sharkey

[RLAwhitetails]

If I had it all to do over I would put the money that I have in deer in to 3rd stage cow's. When I bought my first deer I was told how much the shooter's are worth and how easy it is to make money, but was told wrong for sure.

Anyone want to trade some good cow's for deer just give me a call.

[S&A Whitetails]

So since everyone is aware of how much money is to be lost and how we are just digging our own grave why are we still doing it? Why don't we do somthing about it or is there anything that can be done about it?

[Antlershed]

This has been discussed before in another thread, here is my favorite theroy: breed less deer!

[ddwhitetails]

Yep.....if you want the demand to go back up.......breed less deer.....not real complicated.....

[washington]

works for OPEC!

[fars]

Even if the number of whitetail bred are cut down this fall, you have 3-4 years worth of bucks to hit the market yet.

[ddwhitetails]

You still have to start somewhere.......its kind of like the debt our country is in......they feel like they can't do anything about it so they just keep printing more money and every time they do that it males the dollars value decrease.........we can't turn our noses at the problem we need to face up to it and all pitch in where we can to help turn things around.....if we all cut back on the amount of deer we breed it can have a very big impact.....

[Magnum Valley Whitetails]

My opinon what really hurts the deer prices are the people breeding 500+ deer

[Smoking_44]

My opinon what really hurts the deer prices are the people breeding 500+ deer

500 deer or 500 inch deer?

[Magnum Valley Whitetails]

my bad..500 deer

[Smoking_44]

I thought that's what you meant, just wanted to be sure though...:)

[Antlershed]

I hope others will join me in not breeding as many this year. right now I am not seeing a need to even breed any next year, the way prices are, plus this looks to be the 3rd year in a row that doe fawns have dominated my fawning season. I hate to sound like a complainer, but we all know the market is down and we really need to fix it ourselves, no one but the breeders are going to fix anything, so this is the year to start doing something about it. I am going to breed only 5-6 does this year if i do breed any.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

One thing that I have seen advertised on other threads that will certainly not help the market is these ''how to deer farm seminars'' that are being offered to and targeting potentially new deer farmers and are designed to encourage them into the business! WHAT????? Are you kidding me????? A seminar to encourage more deer farmers into an already determined suppressed, unstable, and uncertain business for many, and we want to add more farmers to that equation for what reason??? It doesn't seem very fair or make sense to those of us that are struggling in this business that people ''in'' the business are out there attempting to recruit deer farmers, when we all know that one of the major problems is ''too many deer''!!!!!!!! A friend of mine earlier this summer asked me to help him get started into the deer business. I was honest with him and told him I could not with good conscious recommend that he get started in the business, even though I had plenty of good does to sell him to get him started (which by the way I shot at birth). Given the escalating cost of feed, bookings being down due to a depressed economy, and the overall saturation of deer within the market, and WHO knows when any of these 3 things are going to turn around, what else could I tell him???

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Mark all you have to think about is the almighty dollar..Just like myself when a person comes in to this thing they buy from the top farms that are out there thinking that thats where to get the big deer and deer that they can market and then a couple years latter they learn...like myself..That even if you buy the best deer from the biggest names you still cant sell your deer or get into auctions...Its still a name game and with new blood brings new dollars.But it only takes a couple years for that new guy to figure out he could have got the same deer or better from a smaller name and smaller farm..like myself.. I think i would have gave the same answer as you did...You did him a favor at this time in the deer world!!!!

[daywoodwhitetails]

Ok i am fairly new to deer farming and as my opinion it is a name game if your a no name with average deer no one pays you any attention but i am not in this for money as most people seem to be all about the money i do this because my family loves fawning and watching the bucks grow year to year if we make some money here and there then thats just a bonus if people would get in that mind set i think it would be a better way enstead of seeing who can breed these huge ceder tree heads that dont look like deer everyone wants a big deer but come on what happened to enjoying a beautiful typ. 10 12 pnt buck with a few kickers here and there when did it become all about these 20 30+ trashy looking inbreed monsters that everyone gets a hard on over again this is just my opinion not trying to piss anyone off or start a big deal

[ddwhitetails]

Some people are in this for a hobby and to others it s a business........this being said, the bigger they the more they are worth......it is no different than any other business........you got to have the product that the clients want...........this is a subject that should probably be discussed in members only forum .......just my opinion

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

The hunting market is a business - it has ups and downs. The whole country is on a down swing so of course the deer business is going to feel it. When the economy turns around so will everything else. Once gov't gets out of the way and business can thrive ALL business will pick up.

Still there is an ad here on the forums for 300" shooter bucks - someone IS looking for them.

[kurthumphrey]

I agree with wild river, its hard for the deer business to thrive when everything else isn't ...

[Sandridge Whitetails]

It's not just about the economy, although the economy weighs in heavy because when money gets tight, recreation, ie hunting, is one of the first things to leave the list of ''must dos''. It's also about too many deer, which also weighs in BIG time.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

Mark, Before you come down on the new "Deer Farmer Seminar" maybe you should attend one! I did and it wasn't a "hey come here sucker give me your money seminar"! It was full of marketing ideas based around the deer business and pop up business from deer farming as well as the benefits of the " Business" as a whole! Give Kevin Grace a call for some details about what went on.....Instead of assuming you know what was involved at the event. The economy is bad enough and we are all suffering from it but we should all be more informed on Alot of issues that face our business and our livlihoods. And focus more on how to help keep ours moving forward in times like these and we should all realize the breeder needs the stocker ranches to succeed now more than ever.......... if they fail......... this WHOLE subject will be a mute point! Just my 2 cents

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

And a very good two cents it was..Things need to change and it has to start at the top!

[fars]

"Once gov't gets out of the way and business can thrive ALL business will pick up."

Do you really think the gubbermint is goin to get out of the way? It has gotten more in the way for the last 100 years and will only continue to get worse. That is the nature of a government.

Good luck to us all!

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Mark, Before you come down on the new "Deer Farmer Seminar" maybe you should attend one! I did and it wasn't a "hey come here sucker give me your money seminar"! It was full of marketing ideas based around the deer business and pop up business from deer farming as well as the benefits of the " Business" as a whole! Give Kevin Grace a call for some details about what went on.....Instead of assuming you know what was involved at the event. The economy is bad enough and we are all suffering from it but we should all be more informed on Alot of issues that face our business and our livlihoods. And focus more on how to help keep ours moving forward in times like these and we should all realize the breeder needs the stocker ranches to succeed now more than ever.......... if they fail......... this WHOLE subject will be a mute point! Just my 2 cents

Wayne, before you come down on 'me' you should get some facts straight and maybe re-read my post. First - You said ''hey come here sucker give me your money seminar'' - I didn't!! My point was VERY clear...If someone thinks that more deer farmers raising more deer is a good idea right now given the current problems within the deer industry - I simply don't agree - adamantly do not agree!!! No, I did not attend the seminar Wayne, but let's review some FACTS stated within the advertisement of that seminar, of which are listed in the ''Events and Activities'' forum, posted on 6-01-2011 at 9:40am, thread entitled ''Beginner Deer Farmer Seminar'' They are as follows, and I will type these sentences contained in the ad exactly how they were printed in the post - no extra caps, quotation marks, etc: ''This is truly for the ''Beginner'' deer farmer! If you have a friend or an aquaintance that is the least bit intrigued by the idea of raising deer...This IS the seminar to attend!'' and ''THIS SEMINAR IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC and we ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO COME!!!!!'' Yeah right Wayne, silly ole misconstrued me for ''assuming'' or thinking that the seminar had the idea/target in mind of starting new people in the business of raising more deer. If they discussed marketing ideas, benefits thereof, info on various other issues, etc. at the seminar - GREAT- that's all good!! But those weren't the components of the seminar I was addressing either, was it Wayne?!!! To sum: If you Wayne or anyone out there thinks the answer now is to incorporate more people to raise more deer, guess we are going to have to agree to disagree - adamantly!!!!! Gonna keep ''my 2 cents'' from here on in - might need it! :)

[buckeyewta]

I'm not sure why everyone seems to to think the deer farming industry is going to pot. I personally have had more success selling bred does and etc the past spring and summer than ever before. Right now I have a few people that called wanting to by does off the farm. To those of you that are having problems selling your animals are you doing your part by visiting other deer farms, going to auctions to meet people etc? Do you have awebsite for your farm? I think the deer industry has a very bright future once we learn how to properly manage and promote our farm. It may not be so in all parts of the country but here in Ohio we have no problem selling our shooter bucks or does.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Mark you are blessed for sure and that is awesome from you but let me give you a little insight from a new farmer of two years that has dropped over 30 grand in this deer world we all love. Keep in mind that over twenty of that went to auction services.I have bought deer at auction and after i talk to the seller they say they listed the wrong deer.I have bought from auctions that have died before they were picked up and ate the down payment.I have bought doe fawns from some of the biggest names in this buisness that have a 75% success rate of fawns being bred(and this is live bred) only to pickup a 100lbs plus fawn to find out in the spring that she did'nt breed.I have bought deer at auction that were to be bred to one of the top deer in the industry only to get a phone call to hear that the straw blew up.So i guess you could say i have just about had it all happen in the two year period. So i try to put deer in or their offspring in auction that mind you came off the top farms just last year only to get a phone call that the deer did'nt make the cut.So i supported 3 auctions and a handfull of awesome farms only to find out my deer are not good enough.I realize they cant take them all and i have no problem with that but i cant wait to see a catalog and see the deer in it because if deer that are 5 generations deep and proven are gettin shot down its gunna be one heck of a sale.On the bright side i did get some great young bucks out of this mess so who knows.NY has a law that tells you how many deer you can have on your farm so if we dont sell deer we eat some high dollar venison.I think if every state adopted that law then you would see deer sell for what they are worth and it would be good for all farmers. The good news is it sounds like shooters are still needed so there is a bright side but like one of the other posts above that says they shoot all the doe fawns is not a good thing and is not in my future and i hope nobody's future.

[virgil]

Hey, Mike you just need to try a little harder. Those top of the line deer you bought must not be top of the line any more. Sounds to me like you need to spend a little more money.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

LOL Virgil...Just amazes me how fast a deer can lose its value in one year..Last year it was worth 4 grand and this year well not so much. I thought it was bad what i lost when i took a new truck off the lot every year but this is crazy!!

[alabowhunter]

Remember Mark, The number of farmers has zero impact on the number of deer. They still reproduce the same each year regardless of how many farmers they are distributed to.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

WOW! Mark.............Ya busted me .................Mark you are so right.............Mark......I should have read all the positive in your post............Mark......I should just go running that I think the sky is falling.........Mark..:)....My whole point is not to single you or anyone else out! Are thier serious problems facinig our industry? Yes
Are there to many deer being bred ? I just think that we as breeders need to breed the best QAUILITY deer that we can and educate farmers of the dangers of not doing so. Are new deerfarmers needed ? In my opion YES......BUT new deerfarmers who are Better informed deerfarmers,Better business minded deerfarmers,Better at choosing what to buy and why! Better informed on the needs of our industry and the importance of belonging to State and National orginizations and how to be a "positive" influence on our communities and our local youth and the groups they belong to...Boy Scouts,Girl Scouts,FFA and even bringing older members of our communities(older hunters who no longer can get out in the woods but still enjoy the thrill of seeing a Big Buck) out to see first hand what we are all about! Thats what I'm doing in my area and I want anyone who wants to be a deerfarmer to be able to choose to do it if he or she chooses to do so and to be even better informed on the business than most are and not be blinded by false hope or empty offers of big money. I'm with Mark Mast we are able to move our stockers and our offspring. I wish nothing but the best for this Industry and those in it!:)

[Rick]

WOW! Mark.............Ya busted me .................Mark you are so right.............Mark......I should have read all the positive in your post............Mark......I should just go running that I think the sky is falling.........Mark..:)....My whole point is not to single you or anyone else out! Are thier serious problems facinig our industry? Yes
Are there to many deer being bred ? I just think that we as breeders need to breed the best QAUILITY deer that we can and educate farmers of the dangers of not doing so. Are new deerfarmers needed ? In my opion YES......BUT new deerfarmers who are Better informed deerfarmers,Better business minded deerfarmers,Better at choosing what to buy and why! Better informed on the needs of our industry and the importance of belonging to State and National orginizations and how to be a "positive" influence on our communities and our local youth and the groups they belong to...Boy Scouts,Girl Scouts,FFA and even bringing older members of our communities(older hunters who no longer can get out in the woods but still enjoy the thrill of seeing a Big Buck) out to see first hand what we are all about! Thats what I'm doing in my area and I want anyone who wants to be a deerfarmer to be able to choose to do it if he or she chooses to do so and to be even better informed on the business than most are and not be blinded by false hope or empty offers of big money. I'm with Mark Mast we are able to move our stockers and our offspring. I wish nothing but the best for this Industry and those in it!:)

I'm with ya Wayne, well said...... You know I was holding some deer back to submit into the Top 30 in Jan and believe it or not I have someone wanting to purchase them now, if he does I am sold out untill the next fawning season, is the market down, it sure is, but so is everything else, we just keep plugging away and hope and pray for guidence to make the right decisions

[buckeyewta]

I agree 100% with both of you Wayne and Rick. Like any other industry we do have a few serious issues that should be addressed sooner rather than later but overall the future for deer farmers looks very bright. I am not saying that it will ever be like it was 5 years ago but what other livestock could you raise that consumes as little feed as a whitetail and that can be sold for $1000 or more when 6 months old. I don't think there is any other livestock even comparable. There is still room for more deer farmers. Most of the people I know of got their bucks sold last year with the guys that held onto them to the end receiving premium prices for them. I can honestly say I have seen more demand for shooter bucks this summer than ever before.

[fars]

"Remember Mark, The number of farmers has zero impact on the number of deer. They still reproduce the same each year regardless of how many farmers they are distributed to. "

Right........ that makes no sense. If I don't sell my excess does, I butcher them...ie..they are not making more fawns. Only if they are going to other deer farmers are they producing fawns.
If you apply your rational to cattle..pigs...chickens..any livestock...it means the number will increase even without new farmers....???? That's not how things work in the real world I am afraid.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Remember Mark, The number of farmers has zero impact on the number of deer. They still reproduce the same each year regardless of how many farmers they are distributed to.

Once a deer farmer has established his safe number of does according to room and their size of business desired, then one of 2 things happen to his does: 1- they are slaughtered for butcher or 2- they are sold to other deer farmers that haven't reached their established numbers or to ''new deer farmers'' attaining the same. So I also do not agree with the ''zero impact'' you speak of, but I do thank you for your lack of sarcasm in expressing your opinion. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here when I say in agreement with Fars that quite simply...Butchered does= no more bucks and Sold does= more bucks.

[alabowhunter]

I wasn't considering butchering does an option. If that's the case, use sexed semen instead.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

WOW! Mark.............Ya busted me .................Mark you are so right.............Mark......I should have read all the positive in your post............Mark......I should just go running that I think the sky is falling.........Mark..:)....My whole point is not to single you or anyone else out! Are thier serious problems facinig our industry? Yes
Are there to many deer being bred ? I just think that we as breeders need to breed the best QAUILITY deer that we can and educate farmers of the dangers of not doing so. Are new deerfarmers needed ? In my opion YES......BUT new deerfarmers who are Better informed deerfarmers,Better business minded deerfarmers,Better at choosing what to buy and why! Better informed on the needs of our industry and the importance of belonging to State and National orginizations and how to be a "positive" influence on our communities and our local youth and the groups they belong to...Boy Scouts,Girl Scouts,FFA and even bringing older members of our communities(older hunters who no longer can get out in the woods but still enjoy the thrill of seeing a Big Buck) out to see first hand what we are all about! Thats what I'm doing in my area and I want anyone who wants to be a deerfarmer to be able to choose to do it if he or she chooses to do so and to be even better informed on the business than most are and not be blinded by false hope or empty offers of big money. I'm with Mark Mast we are able to move our stockers and our offspring. I wish nothing but the best for this Industry and those in it!:)

Wayne - Why the condescending sarcasm?? You 'did' in fact single me out, and accuse me of a wrong ''assumption'' concerning the seminar. I merely defended my position by using some of the very/exact verbiage in the ad to validate and substantiate my ''assumption''. Am I to believe that the age old principle in business of ''supply and demand'' does not apply to the deer industry?...that it will not, could not, or has not already negatively affected the current health and stamina of the deer industry?? I believe one's main target in the promotion of the business at this time should be towards the hunter. The HUNTER is the most important component to all of us in the deer industry. Without the hunter, we are ALL done and all the 500 inch deer on the planet aren't worth squat! To promote and encourage, at this time, new deer farmers into the business is like ''pushing the cart ahead of the horse''. The real work/attention, first and foremost, needs to be on the ''demand'' right now before we worry about building a delicate(to time) and perishable inventory. Deer are not an inventory that can be stored or shelved in some warehouse awaiting the demand to catch up. It is this ideology of Kevin Costner's ''Build it and they will come'' that has gotten people to prematurely enter into the business only to soon close the doors. Wayne, although positive exposure to people in our communities such as to the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, FFA, as well as the elderly is a great idea, I doubt very much that it will address or fix the main and more immediate/serious problems facing us now, i.e. the grain price, the economy, and the over saturation of deer. Preserve owners offering discounted hunts, group rates, and incredible deals for parent/sibling hunts is an idea that would certainly help in an immediate fashion as well as long term. Anything one can do to coax/convince new blood into the fence to hunt would be paramount!! I believe Wayne what your and my diagreement boils down to is our different objectives. You're position is that of a breeder...mine is that of a deer stocker, but different objectives do not change some of these facts. I never said and I do not say now that I don't believe there is/could be a future in the deer business. What I did say from the onset was this '' Recruiting new deer farmers 'AT THIS JUNCTURE', given the current circumstances, is not a good idea and I fail to see the wisdom thereof FOR the vast majority! Wayne, I know your reference to Chicken Little's - ''I should just go running that I think the sky is falling'' was not meant to be prophetic, but in many ways was. The sky IS going to ''fall'' someday. The Bible tells us that no one knows the day or the hour of the 'end as we know it' except and only the Father, yet we will know the season. And it doesn't take a Biblical Scholar to know we are definitely in ''that season''!!! I sincerely hope Wayne, that when that day comes that you are not running, that you are standing there with me with open arms welcoming what we see descending from Heaven!!! Hang in there all...the BEST is yet to come!!!

[virgil]

I don't know if some are so stupid to see what more new farmers is doing to the deer business or weather they are so ignorant that they choose to look the other way.
Encouraging new farmers to raise deer is going to kill the industry. Sure you can sell a new guy deer and make money and a nother and a nother but what are you going to do with all the deer that they produce.
The end focus should be taking money from hunters who know what they are spending their money on. Not on taking money from some new guy that in reality is going to loose money. Yes a few might make a buck but most will loose money and be left dissapointed.
Make sure to tell anyone getting into the business the the truth. Which is the market is flooded with shooters and you can't make crap raising and selling them. How ever it is a fun time raising and whatching them grow and if you are lucky you may raise a stud buck that you could make money from.

Now back to the original purpose of this post what are the preserves paying for shooters this year. This is not a hard question to answer so if some of you preserve owners would be so kind as to let us know please do so.

[fars]

I am not a preserve owner, but what I have heard in MN is disheartening.
$3500 for a 200"+ That's if they need it, they won't commit anything yet.

[crocket]

ummmm but what about a state thats just geting started and the states lines are closed in-n-out am i/we screwed !

[Sandridge Whitetails]

''Now back to the original purpose of this post what are the preserves paying for shooters this year. This is not a hard question to answer so if some of you preserve owners would be so kind as to let us know please do so''

Pretty darn quiet out here Virgil. Good luck to you and all those who seek to sell their bucks this year...for a reasonable profit!

[virgil]

So far the best I heard is 2500-4000 for 200-250 and 1500 for 150s. Seems 150s have the biggest demand also. Some body any body please give some input.

[Reed68]

I have 13 bucks ready to go and they are between 130"-170" with the average being around 150". I will let the whole group go for $12,000. Thats under $1,000 a piece.

(Long overdue "Soap Box")

I have been raising deer for 10 years and Never did I think I would sell for these prices. I have busted my butt for 4 years to try to move stockers with no luck. Its time to stop lieing to new poeple saying "The Deer Business is booming"....save it. Most of what you see at sales is "money swapping" and tax right off's. Stop BS'ing yourselves. WE made it this way. WE sold our JUNK deer to new farmers to pay the feed bill, WE killed the semen market by collecting every deer with a "DNA", WE put ourselves out of business. Im willing to admit it...WE HAVE FAILED!!! And, I dont want to see ONE reply saying that all the shooters were shot last year and and there were none to be found cuz I have sheds for you and can tell you where to stick them. So, with all that said, I have stockers for DIRT CHEAP! (No, I'm not letting you down because I'm slashing my own prices,,,,I'm paying the feed bill so a gate dont get opened........

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Does anyone else notice that these kinda posts just keep popin up over and over.Inflated prices on deer bid up by friends and does being sold that should be culled.Someday we will see only deer with dna top and bottom being sold in auction and only one lot per farm in the sales.That way you would know the deer are what they say and you can value their worth and also mabey some others could get deer in the auctions besides the same farms getting into all the sales with deer that they no longer want or are not productive for them so they pass them on to the new farmer that now has a deer with very little value....If Any!!!

[Reed68]

Mr. Kerry, Its not that I havnt wanted too start saying this a long time ago. Im not new to this, I see whats going on. WE have bred these animals up to where they look like crap. They dont even look like a deer. I get on here about once a week now only to get mad and go on. Its not fun anymore to see a bunch of freaks that cant even be scored they are so messed up. Ever wonder why 150" deer are in demand....?..cuz they look like a dang whitetail. Oh, well. Enough of my crying. I will log off, prolly get banned, and get re3ady to go to the freakin feed store. Blah, Blah.........

[Smoking_44]

I recently found out that there are 10 deer farmers in my county. I fear I am getting in too late in the industry to make any money to at least break even in a few years.

[buckeyewta]

Bucks sold pretty doo today at the Great Lakes Classic. 4500 to 5000 for a 200 class.

[Tim Condict]

Jay Don,
Consider them 13 bucks sold.

[virgil]

Way to step up Tim!!! Wish I could have sold you mine last year when there were non to be found. What a joke.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Below is a post written in 2009. Wish this thing was the other way around, how someone prophesized doom and gloom and we were walking the streets of gold instead of big the way it is. By the way, not slamming you for your post, Richard-just was looking for another thread I remembered and found this. Thought it was interesting.

TDA Early results!! Holy &@$!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I think that there is nothing to worry about in the deer industry. It is very strong. Just to mention a few Woodard whitetails choice doe fawn brought 110,000.00,another choice doe brought 155,000.00, and multiple deer brought over 40,000.00. Oh yeah bambi 727 sold for 460,000.00. Holy $&@! If there were any worries about this industry getting weak I think that this sale should make you feel better. Congrats to all
__________________
Richard Glass- Buck Fever Whitetails

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Oh the good old day's!! Thats the year i started.I'm sure top deer will demand top dollar in todays deer world but after that downhill it goes.

[virgil]

Have any of you guys selling shooters got any prices for your shooters. Seems the preserves don't post their prices they are paying for shooters. So I figured some or you guys might share some prices. No need for names just an idea of what things are going for.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Everyone goes through some natural attrition. What would happen if we could get those serious about turning this market around to breed, say 15-25% fewer does this year? I know I'm selling bucks a lot smaller and younger than I had planned in the beginning. They aren't worth much but the risk of losing one by keeping him for another year or two doesn't justify keeping him. So guys, who's willing to cut down their herd, butcher does from the bottom end, breed fewer, sell your shooters smaller and younger for a year or two? I have no idea how to run numbers through an equation, but I really think that this would help matters. I'll be the first to say I'm doing it. This doesn't mean I'm getting out, just playing smarter while things are in the tank.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

PS a 2-year old is still paying for his stay right now at Antler Valley, I really can't say that for 3-year olds, though.

[Derek Workman]

Im chiming in here late but i have said this for a long time. Last year all our does went for dirt cheap but only to preserves with NO pedigree and an agreement they would be killed. I put them in the preserve myself. This Year EVERY Doe Fawn minus one and all does that are being replaced are going to be slaughtered by a local meat guy. Could I throw these out there in the market and make a few more dollars.....yes but then Im letting the next guy raise another doe fawn that will compete against me and another shooter buck that will take away from what i have to sell. Just my 2 cents


I have 13 bucks ready to go and they are between 130"-170" with the average being around 150". I will let the whole group go for $12,000. Thats under $1,000 a piece.

(Long overdue "Soap Box")

I have been raising deer for 10 years and Never did I think I would sell for these prices. I have busted my butt for 4 years to try to move stockers with no luck. Its time to stop lieing to new poeple saying "The Deer Business is booming"....save it. Most of what you see at sales is "money swapping" and tax right off's. Stop BS'ing yourselves. WE made it this way. WE sold our JUNK deer to new farmers to pay the feed bill, WE killed the semen market by collecting every deer with a "DNA", WE put ourselves out of business. Im willing to admit it...WE HAVE FAILED!!! And, I dont want to see ONE reply saying that all the shooters were shot last year and and there were none to be found cuz I have sheds for you and can tell you where to stick them. So, with all that said, I have stockers for DIRT CHEAP! (No, I'm not letting you down because I'm slashing my own prices,,,,I'm paying the feed bill so a gate dont get opened........

[Jack]

Well I'm starting to be realistic about the deer industry and we will be slaughtering 100 whitetail does and will only AI 25 of the top does with no back up. We will expose a very few for natural breeding. We will only produce one tenth of the whitetail fawns that we had produced in the past. We are doing the same with the elk. If an animal doesn't make a profit we will just use them as a hobby much like we do with horses.

In Montana I have seen the loss of our deer and elk industry in one day due to government interference and misinformed public. Our harvest facility was in compliance but what we did on Nov 7th 2000 was no longer legal on Nov 8th 2000 due to the public vote to stop harvesting the animals behind an eight foot fence. This should scare the hell out of all deer and elk producers because that is the way to kill the industry. One Federal law stopping the harvesting of deer and elk could put this industry out of business and we would all be raising pets.

[Reed68]

I am happy to say that Mr. Condict did step up. He took the next at bat and swung away. Thank You Tim, and Oklahoma......

Its not what I had hoped for, but it does keep deer one my farm ONE more year.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Reed68 if you are giving your deer away at those prices, then you should get out of the deer business completly this year. Eat your does, its easy. Come next year at this time you will be on here again complaining about prices all over again just as you did last year. If your selling them dirt bag cheap now, you will be forced to do it again next year. The hunting preserves appreciate failures in the breeding business so they can buy stock at very low prices. Face it, you would of never sold your stock for what you wanted, BUT, since you got on this forum and complained, the vultures stepped in and bought your bucks dirt cheap. By you staying in the biz for another year, your only hurting yourself and others who want to continue in this business and your only lining the pockets of the preserves, that is what they want, its a f-----g no brainer.

[fars]

Reed68 if you are giving your deer away at those prices, then you should get out of the deer business completly this year. Eat your does, its easy. Come next year at this time you will be on here again complaining about prices all over again just as you did last year. If your selling them dirt bag cheap now, you will be forced to do it again next year. The hunting preserves appreciate failures in the breeding business so they can buy stock at very low prices. Face it, you would of never sold your stock for what you wanted, BUT, since you got on this forum and complained, the vultures stepped in and bought your bucks dirt cheap. By you staying in the biz for another year, your only hurting yourself and others who want to continue in this business and your only lining the pockets of the preserves, that is what they want, its a f-----g no brainer.

Wow that's brutal. The situation is bad, but I don't think you can blame anyone on here for it. It's more or less a product of the current economical crisis and the only ones to really blame are our elected officials.

[Liveoak]

See, now this is why don't like the internet....... I get online, look at some nice deer and go on my way.... but not after reading post 101.

I am a preserve owner and breeder, as I believe Tim is too.

Let me say one thing to saline creek before I go any further, what jay does with his deer AINT NONE OF YOUR D&%N BUSINESS.

Unless you've been reading on here, which I'm sure isnt the whole story, or know him personally you have no clue what he's going through or what bills he has to pay. And in case you havent noticed the market is evening out. Pretty soon a 170 is going to be a 170 and its going to bring the same money in every state unless theres an abundance of breeders there with nowhere to send em. Why is this? Because its too easy for a hunter to get on a plane and go to a state that sells 170 class hunts for $3000.00. So if I'm watching my hunters leave to go somewhere else I'm going to do two things, lower my price and find cheaper deer. If I have to look longer and harder or bite my nails and wait til the last minute to buy em thats what I'll do. Don't blame the preserves for your situation, you chose to do it and you put yourself in the position your in, be accountable for it or to me you might as well be a democrat.

As far as lining the preserves pockets, do I really need to write lol or did everybody just do that? I guarantee you the preserves are selling less than 50% of their hunts at advertised price. I know I am and a lot more that are too. Have you checked the cost of advertising in TTHA magazine? I DARE you to check the cost of a half page ad in Outdoor life, any game and fish mag, or even buckmasters..... yeah preserves are bringing money in but its going right back out the door. I'll by all my stockers from anyone that agrees to go in half on a full page ad in any of those three magazines.

Do I need to mention the cost of feed, food, etc.. just to host a 3 day 1 on 1 guided hunt for 3 guys over a weekend costs me over $3000.00.


So lets say I pay $3000.00 for a 170 here in Texas, I get lucky and sell it for an advertised price of $7750. Well it cost me $100 to dart him, $300 to go get him, then I put out a $400 ton of protein feed that the farmer was feeding him so he'd stay alive the month til my hunter got here. Bill Bob coming in to kill him is an eater, so my $400 a hunt cook has to buy $200 of groceries to feed Billy Bob and his $500 a hunt guide that spends $150 in gas going to pick up Billy Bob at the airport and hauling his butt around the ranch before taking him back. After the crew leaves for the weekend I have to pay my cleaning lady, wife, $100 to come in and clean up the mess they made. So after they leave I have $2600 to make two truck payments, 2 powerbills(my house and lodge), 4 cell phone bills, a phone bill, internet bill, health insurance(its mandatory now in case you didnt know), fuel, feed, advertising, do I need to go on cause I really have other things to do....

Say I do 20 hunts a year, thats $52,000 to raise a family and run a business. Thats not enough but its what most of us have to deal with....and quite frankly.... ITS NONE OF YOUR D%$N BUSINESS what I do or how I do it or what I sell or buy my deer for. You have a price you need and I have a price I need to pay and if they dont work I'll go somewhere else and find what I need. But when I hear that you sold your deer for less than what you advertised them for it wont bother me..... BECAUSE ITS NONE OF MY D$%N BUSINESS.....

[virgil]

Wow someone from a preserve finaly gave a price 3000 for a 170 class. That seems like a good price. Way more than they are bringing at auction. Does anyone else have any prices.

[Liveoak]

Virgil, thats part of my point, thats the going price here in Texas for a 170. Just 4 years ago a 3 year old 170 shooter was bringing $5-7,000 and selling to the hunter at 10-12,000. The price is going down here because our end user, hunters, are going elswhere for cheaper hunts. I have 3 regulars that are going out of state to hunt 170s for $3000 this year, which is what theyre selling for here. I think it'll go down some more here in Texas before it levels off.......

The question is whether or not northern prices will come up any to meet Texas prices without smaller breeders having to go out of business up there to create a shortage of animals in order to get those prices back up.

Seems to me the top 3% of animals will be breeders, the rest are end user oriented no matter what kind of expense you have in them right now. Until there's a shortage of 160-200 class animals the prices will continue to decline. Just my opinion.

[richie0033]

The northern market is now starting to effect the closed border states as Texas and Alabama.. It is so flooded up north that they are giving their deer away..Just imagine if you were in a northern state with closed borders,then the preserves buy from breeders in that state versus all of the 1000's of breeders outside of the state..All breeders need to stick together on their prices and keep the average..But also if you support the breeders in your state ,if the borders were closed,I think it would be a win win for all..The prices would still be good and all would be happy..If the market keeps getting flooded it won't be long before the breeders in the north will be eating their 200" bucks too...Just my 2 cents

[dearjohn]

The northern market is now starting to effect the closed border states as Texas and Alabama.. It is so flooded up north that they are giving their deer away..Just imagine if you were in a northern state with closed borders,then the preserves buy from breeders in that state versus all of the 1000's of breeders outside of the state..All breeders need to stick together on their prices and keep the average..But also if you support the breeders in your state ,if the borders were closed,I think it would be a win win for all..The prices would still be good and all would be happy..If the market keeps getting flooded it won't be long before the breeders in the north will be eating their 200" bucks too...Just my 2 cents

how many ranches raise their own shooters?
How many don't?
I bet most ranches raise their own. Then might have to buy a few.

[jason e]

Don't worry Alabama will be that way before long. The prices are already coming down. Every hunting preserve in Alabama raises deer also, so it won't be long before the preserves are naming their price here.

[virgil]

People need to discorage new guys from getting in the business. If you tell a new guy the truth most will be a little more cautiuos about getting in. I tell them how it is and let them make their choice based on the truth.

[sharkey]

In this part of the world,in states were game reservers are legal.The breeder usually recieves half of the trophy fee.
If the market is up or down its half each,risk shared.No ill feelings.
Trophy fee is not guiding,tresspass fees,catering,etc.
As to who transports & takes that risk?Who in the equasion wants to buy or sell the most?
I dream of the prices you are still getting & your deer have twins & are trophys at three.
How well do whitetail do on grass & browse?
As for prices Ive just bought 35 red deer I didn't want, six 5yo stags (all double six or better),14 filled hinds,balance are weaners & yearlings.
Forty dollars each,just so they wouldn't open the gates to the national park beside their farm & give our industry bad press.
Yes,I'll make money even at 150c kg (70c lb)but it shows how lean you have to become to survive.
Thankfull deer eat grass.
Cheers Sharkey
PS.
In a free market the market decides.
It's not for anyone to tell others how much for, or how many they sould sell.
Work togeather to strengthen the demand for your product,because the market will decide the price.

[sdbigbucks]

Spot On Steven, I've said it over and over, if it's so lucrative running a preserve then go to the bank, borrow a couple million to get your preserve started and then another million later to finish it. It's just as easy as that, NOW your a rich preserve owner. If it was so easy and lucrative everyone would do it and be succcessful at it. Now that we've got it pretty much figured out to a science, raising the deer is the easiest part. Worrying your a$$ off wondering if the season coming up is going to bring in enough clients to make enough to pay the bills on the bank note, preserve land, lodge, BUCKS, hired help, etc. is the hard part. I've run a bird and free range deer hunting operation for 15 years and spend over 100 days in a row from sunrise to midnight keeping things organized so every group has a good time. Everyone always says, all you have to do is go hunting everyday, Sorry but it's not anything like going out with friends on a free hunt with nothing to loose(reputation, clients, lives of clients in a hunting accident).During the year I see money comming in and like Steven said, when it's all over, you barely have anything left. Raising deer isn't cheap and running a preserve isn't either, so many people figure you buy a 200 inch buck for $4,500 and turn around and sell it for $10,000 if your lucky and you just made an easy $5,500. It doesn't work quite that easy, I wish it did. Free markets is what makes this country great, the ones who work the hardest promoting will usually succeed. Anyone can cash flow a buisiness on paper with a full sale order at full price but when it comes down to it, free market economy's have ups and downs, nothing comes easy. If you can't find a buyer for your product, either your not making the product people want, your price is too high compared to someone elses(probably isn't too high too you) or your not promoting what you have in a good light so people will want to buy it. If someone keeps complaining over and over no one will buy my bucks, I'm thinking your price is not competative or your bucks aren't what people want. I'm probably not even going to look at them because you've already told me no one wants to buy them so I'm assuming there is a reason for that. No matter how bad it gets you have to stay positive, it will show to your customers and that will often times make the difference between a sale or no sale. I would rather buy from someone who I like to deal with beacause they are a positive person then deal with someone I can't stand even if they do have a lower price. It's like anything in buisiness, if there is money to be made fairly easy, everyone will try it and then you end up with what you have now, too many bucks for the amount of hunters. The preserve owners who raise there own deer will be the ones who survive the storm better because they at least have somewhat of an outlet to get rid of the deer they are feeding, may not be for what they have advertised and most likely isn't but it's better then the price of the guy who just raises them and completely relys on what a preserve is willing to offer. The cattle industry is the same way, all the packing company's feed out there own cattle in feedlots, this way they can control the price, they know sooner or later you WILL HAVE TO sell your fat cattle because they are done and will just cost you more money to keep them, until then they kill there own to fill in the demand and keep the prices down at the farm but the supermarket price remains high. Thats what happens when you have thousands of deer farms and only a couple hundred preserves that actually buy other deer. It happens the same way in grain, when a commodity becomes high priced, everyone plants it the next year and then guess what happens to that crop, price usually goes down if the crop is good. Now days so many people are raising big deer at an earlier age and so much more efficient that there are way more shooters now available then a few years ago. The Economy right now doesn't help any either. I'm afraid that's just how supply and demand works, like it or not. Same as if you have 2 feed stores with the same brand deer feed you need, who are you going to buy from, probably the one who shoots you the best price. That's why it doesn't make much sense to buy a $50,000 doe that will return you a few shooter bucks you can't sell, If your extremely lucky and she doesn't tip over dead when you get her home and you still have to feed her. The over inflated auction fake run up days are about over and now the prices are getting back where they should be for what the actual demand is. Like Sharkey said, "in a free market, the market decides". Just my 2 cents that ain't worth a penny.

Cody Warne

[richie0033]

I couldn't have said it better. Good people with good deer usually never have a hard time selling deer.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Dog gone it Steven, you just made your business everyones business and mine too by explaining the cost of your business, right here on line. Anyway, I recalculated your figures and wow, by your calculations you show that you just made over $12,000 for that one weekend hunt, thats awesome. But it also looks like you may have made even more than that. Ya see, it does'nt cost $100 to dart one deer, unless you are a poor shot and have to shoot several times. A bottle of telezol at most is around $55 to $65. A dart is $3 to $4 each. At minimun if done correctly, two deer can be tranquilized for LESS than $100. I can tranquilize 4 bucks for $100, and yes they are wild.

Now as for $300 to go get him, that could be but chances are you are probably not spending $300 to travel after ONE 170" buck, at least a wise business man would not, especially for a 170".

You mentioned a $400 ton of feed for HIM for a month........uuuummmmm. One deer will eat about 5 pounds of feed per day, thats 150 pounds a month, multiplied by the 3 bucks you have now is only,,,,,,,,,about 450 pounds not one ton. So thats only $100 not $400.

You pay your chef $400 per hunt, that is $1,200 a weekend for the 3 guys. If you are really paying the cook that, then I would come and do their cooking for less. Since the other amounts you talk about are over inflated, the cooks salary, more than likely, is over inflated also, so I will just stay here and tend to my own job, thanks though. You say he spends $200 for BillyBobs food, thats $600, thats impossible. I spend about $150 a WEEK, thats 7 days, to feed my family of 3. Are you feeding them lobster and halibut, I doubt it.

Now, my turn, and I speak for all breeders. Let's say a breeder buys a cheap $500 doe fawn, raise it till age 1.5 years breeds her then she has her fawns at age 2. Chances are, she had 1 buck and 1 doe fawn. At weening the buck fawn the breeder kills the doe to butcher. By now the breeder has fed her for 2 years. At $400 per year for feed, water and hay the breeder has $1,300 invested in the doe. Ok. Now let's raise the buck for 2 years, feed, water and hay. Thats $800 more spent. Plus $25 to tranquilize at age 1.5 to saw the antlers. Total spent is $2,125. The buck scores in the 170's. You pay the breeder $3,000. The breeder made $875 in 4 years. You made $12,000 in one weekend. WOW is'nt that amazing.

Jeff

[fars]

Hunting preserves are at the end of the supply chain. Therefore they are set up to make money as deer farms fold and sell out. I don't blame them for their position. It's just they way things are. We need each other.

The real problem in all of this is current economic situation. Bailing out wall street just encouraged them to funnel the new money directly into commodities driving feed price up. At the same time people are losing jobs right and left or are taking pay cuts. Bank of America is looking at laying off 40,000 alone.

A person without a job is not going to buy a hunt from a preserve. The only option left open is to drop prices and look for new hunters from the ranks of those that were unable to afford the old prices. But as we all know if the new prices don't pay the feed bill........


Good luck to us all!

[Liveoak]

Economics..... Jeff, I wish I only paid $55 for Telazol. Last I got here I paid $86 a bottle, and that was buying 12 bottles. I guess my vets trying to kill the deer industry too since he makes a living and services 2 counties with a total population 6200. As far as darting a deer, I mix 3.5 of xylazine 333($) to a bottle of telazol, mature buck
/big pen I'd hit him with 1.5 just to be safe and make sure hes out. He goes down then banamine, wormer, antibiotic, b complex and if its tolazine. I just figured $100..... seems close.

You see Texas is a big state and the borders are closed. There's a lot of shooter packages of 20+ bucks. But I dont need 20 plus bucks. I only need a handful. If I can get more than one in one trip I will but with a movement deadline of Sept 20 you have a small window that a ton of deer move in and honestly I like it that way instead of being able to breed a buck in November and shoot him in December. Maybe if your state had a movement deadline for hard horned animals it would make the preserves step up to the plate and buy early and pay more......

I made a 627 mile round trip yesterday delivering one deer and picking one up. Stopped 5 times for gas and 3 times to eat. Not economical but the best that could be done since both were Southeast of me and the next group of deer I have bought are Northeast. That was one of those, "I got a buddy over here 45 miles that has a 200" 3 yr old hed like to sell, I dont have a picture of him but we can go look at him" . We bought him out of economics and to help a guy out that didnt really know how to push his deer butt needed to pay his feed bill.

Well you got me on the $400 ton of feed. Ive got all my deer in my 1800 acre hunting pasture I lease trained to stay away from the new guys feeder so only he can eat out of it for 30 days. What do you think I do? Stick em in a breeder pen and shoot em the next day? Hello????

Cook gets paid $400 for a hunt(trip out to ranch to cook for hunters) up to 5 people, $500 to 10.

Ever cooked for 5-10 people? Ever cooked for someone you wanted to impress? My son will eat deer meat and potatoes with a piece of bread and be happy. On a paid hunt people expect 3 meals a day. Hello? Ive gotta pay for the guide and cook to eat too..... Have you seen the price of groceries lately? Those farmers and dairy people are ripping us off( thats a joke, I know plenty of farmers worse off than me). I dont feed em lobster but I dont feed em hot dogs and oatmeal either.

Yep Ive made $12,000 in a weekend before. But I worked my butt off 10 months out of the year stretching that $12k from the previous year to get back to it. My window of opportunity is small.

So I guess joe blow hunter is going to say to me. "Look Steve, I know you have to feed dolly, holly, and molly in order to breed them to make shooter bucks. I'm going to pay you an extra $2k for this hunt so you can feed those deer I dont give a crap about instead of going somewhere else and spending less money to shoot the same size animal." Good luck with that!

Why cant people understand that the hunter is the end user in this market and will set the price by demand? He could care less about what a deers pedigree, feed bill, or vaccination report looks like. If he can get online and in two hours price 100 hunts across the US for 170 plus bucks, including free range Odds are he's going to call the 5 lowest priced places and make a choice between them. Has it ever occured to you that the reason the preserve is nickle and diming you is because he was nickle and dimed himself?

Its not the hunters problem people cant figure out how to feed their does. You may pay $5000 for a well pedigreed doe, I wont because I know I could never get someone to pay me $500 to shoot her. I cant help it if a breeder spent $200,000 buying his breeding stock to start out with that doesnt have anything to do with the product youre selling that has a $ value placed on what he has on his head by the end user.

Here's the kicker. In todays economy most hunters want to shoot a 150-170 in the $5k range. Theres not any out there because the breeders are all breeding for bigger deer. Its like going to a chevy dealership, most middle class families will buy an impala, when you get there he's got 50 corvettes and 2 impalas. It wont be long before he has to take a major loss on some of his corvettes just to move them because he's got all these customers with a limited amount of income to spend.

As for economics, Ive been doing this for 20 years. When we started we did 125 free range hunts a year easy. Gave Buckmasters a hunt every year and spent $3000 a year for a two inch add in the back of a couple of magazines. Phone rang off the hook, at times we'd get over 100 phone calls with a 25% booking rate after a tv show on TNN. This year I will have spent $30,000 in advertising to sell 75 hunts at a lower profit percentage. Go figure that. Its the world we live in and I'm dealing with it every day but I'm not going to complain about what someone else did or does to survive because I may have to do it tomorrow. Who knows, maybe we'll get lucky, Jesus will come back and I dont have to worry about all this non essential crap anymore. Thats my hope anyway.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

I believe there is alot of truth spoke here on all these posts, except yours Sharkey(just kiddin:)), with 'most' of the slants/differences boiling down to different perpectives. The one thing that is for sure and for certain is the fact that this world today is chucked full of uncertainties, and the deer industry is not one bit exempt. Had to laugh(respectfully) Steven at your last 2 sentences and could not agree with you more - my hope as well!!!

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Well said Steven. When the truth is spoke, many become offended, but its just not right to hide behind lies. I have turned down 2 deer buyers and explained to another that there is not much money left to be made in this industry. I also told them that because I knew they would be in shooter buck competition against us soon. As far as what you said to me, I was not offended. I'm sure Reed was offended, though I did not want to offend, I just wanted to put reality in perspective. Good luck.

Jeff

[haw926]

Probably a terrible time to even put a post up here. I have been guiding 6 days a week from 5 am-10pm We are entertaining hunters. It is a blast sitting in the stand and watching big bucks hit the floor. After months of guiding it starts to effect you pretty bad. For all the guys that think the preserves are making a killin right now I encourage you to put up a place and do it. I can see preserves going under in the next 2 years. I have spoke with 2 of the biggest preserves in the country in the past few weeks and one is making a go of it with numbers way down. The other is struggling and may go under this year. When an out sider looks in it looks as if the ranches make the money and producers get ripped. In the past 10 years of hunting we have possibly had more years in the RED then in the positive. Some say how can that be look at the turn around. My answer is simply this buy a track of land put up some fence and see how you make out. It is hard to sit here and read all these negative posts. I feel as if we have taken a step towards a better future with our ranch. We have invested more money into advertising in the past 12 months that I could live off of for several years. All these expense need to come from somewhere. It all comes down to quality hunting vs a put and take cheap run down version joke of a hunting ranch. May sound harsh but as a indusrtry we need to work in one direction.

[Liveoak]

Jeff, I'm by no means offended and didnt intend to offend anyone else. I just wanted to clarify comicly that not everyone out there running a preserve is getting rich at someone elses suffering, especially not the ones ran with integrity and honesty. Just to reiterate that point I received two bills today that didnt go into prior posts. 1. replacement and repair bill for 11 trailcameras and 2. 7 new pop up blinds to replace ones worn out or torn up. Not to mention the monthly bill for the 2 million dollar general liability policy, thank the Lord they take monthly payments on that one......

I used to love to read this forum and posted a good bit. But when I read about is this problem or that problem, other than health issues, it gets depressing. My generation isn't as bad as my sons but no one seems to want to be accountable for their decisions or actions. We're all entitled to a big screen tv, cell phone, and new vehicle. And thats just not the case. Sometimes it comes down to what a person can do or has to do to survive and feed his animals or even moreso his family. I personally applaud a person who puts aside pride and takes less than he feels he deserves to make sure those things are taken care of. I also dont think its right to take advantage of someone in need but it happens and will continue to happen. If the buyer and seller agree on a price and one pays and the other cashes the check there's not much any of us can say or do about it.

I'd tell anyone coming into this business at the top or the bottom you might as well just kiss your initial investment goodbye. The cost of the facility, pens, breeding stock... basicly all start up expenses and start from the day after you fill up the feeders the first time keeping up with money in and out. Then if you stay above zero and enjoy it it was worth the investment, if not then lesson learned. The top 3% of breeding animals bring good money, A $10,000 doe eats the same amount of feed as a $1,000 doe, you just dont get your feelings hurt as bad when both of their three year old sons bring the same amount of money getting on a trailer headed to a preserve.

[virgil]

You know if everyone would agree on some set prices for shooters and some set prices for hunts we would not have this problem. One guy trying to lowball the other to get more hunts is were it all starts. The industry needs to set a standard and if you are not meeting those standards you get black balled. Yes I know there are more 200+ bucks now than ever before and not enoughf high end hunters to shoot them all so we lower the cost on those hunts. As for the 200 and lower stick to the old prices and you would probly sell more 200+ hunts because they would be geting a better deal on that calibor of a hunt. We all have low end or smaller bucks that cost the same to raise as a big one. So we need to stick together and keep those prices up to were we are not loosing on them.
One more thing its pretty bad when no one can list what they are paying for shooters. This tells me most preserve owners are just waiting to take advantage of someone. what is everyone afraid of how hard is it to list your prices.

[dearjohn]

don't sell deer sell jerkey?

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

You are correct Virgil. I was told by a well known preserve owner that it is the preserve owners who are cutting each others throats by low balling there hunts. In my line of business ( and I said this before on these forums) I cull out the low end client. These are the ones that are always calling price shopping, low balling me at the job sight or just telling me that they can get it cheaper else where. I tell them "good bye" because I know they will not appreciate low quality product or poor quality service (especially poor quality service) when they do go elswhere and after they get burnt once or twice they do return to quality. Before long there after I see those guys that can not give high quality, do poorly themselves and there business fails.

[sdbigbucks]

Set price??? That's called communism and it's never worked unless YOU are willing to loan the guy who needs to pay his bills money until he finds a buyer or should I say to the guys who do nothing to promote what they have, a buyer finds them. This country was built on competition and free markets, the ones who work harder, breed better and more efficient will usually make more money then the guys who make bad decisions and do nothing to promote or market there buisiness. It 's easy to say hold out if you have the money and place to feed and house your deer for an uncertain amount of time. I would like to hold mine until I can get what I want for them, I'm willing to hold out if your willing to bank role me.

[Liveoak]

Robert, I say this with all due respect. The price up front hunters pay, is a deposit. If I think I'm going to book 20 hunts next year, based on my offseason expenses from last year, I set a deposit rate of $1500 or $2,000. Thats to pay my bills during the offseason. By the time season rolls around all the deposit money is gone and if the hunter doesnt kill a deer I'm out the money to pay for his hunt expenses because he doesnt pay a kill fee. Add to that mortality rate for deer bought and you start losing money in a hurry.

Most preserves have to release 3 or 4 yr olds and have to do so in the fall. You have two negatives there, a bad age to release and a bad time of the year. I wont say any specifics but that release date leads to lower survivability. If you want the best survivability as a preserve you release bucks in the late winter/early spring of growing their third set of horns. Thats when I release mine with over 90% surviving every year to 4 or older. If I didnt grow my own I couldnt release them then because breeders wont sell them then. You get the old this ones got this pedigree, that ones got a 4 yr old brother that blew up at three, they'll be bigger this fall and I might get more money for them then, etc......

The reason you wont see a price list on here is that prices are different in every state. The first thing I ask when looking at deer is "what do you want for them?". Then the negotiating begins. I may pay more to breeder x because his deer are in better body shape than breeder y's. I may pay more if they act like deer and not pets. I may pay more if they are all the same age and not a mixed bag, been in the same pen together for a year, or if I know this breeder has a product I want first option on next year, or throws a couple younger deer in at a decent price.

There are so many factors when buying a deer you cant put a set price on every size. I wont. The breeders are just as responsible for the situation theyre in as the preserves are. I could say more but its just not sinking in for some. You set youre own price by accepting the check, yeah some people are crooks and probably do bad things but like heath said, theres a lot of em that'll be out of business in the next year or two.

[rrwhitetails]

seems to be alot more advertizing money spent on breeding stock. Maybe we should be more concerned about getting more hunts not more deer. After all if we dont find the hunters why do we need deer breeders.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

seems to be alot more advertizing money spent on breeding stock. Maybe we should be more concerned about getting more hunts not more deer. After all if we dont find the hunters why do we need deer breeders.

What you said is very true and is already catching up to the industry!

[Bow Safari]

My ranch is in south east Oklahoma. Bow Safari. This is my second year to conduct trophy whitetail hunts. Last year was tough being my first year. Very hard to get hunters. This year was looking good, until it came down to getting deposits and closing the deals. Everyone was coming to hear tell. Then it was a panic until we finally got some commitments 2 months after deposits were due. As of right now we have 24 whitetail hunts starting Nov 4th. The way I have been buying deer is taking my hunt prices and splitting that with the breeder. This keeps it as fair as possible. Until I have to discount the hunt because of another ranch shooting deer cheaper than I can buy them. Anyway, we have averaged giving 1200-1750 for 150"-160" deer, we sell these hunts for $3500 and feed and lodge them for 3 days. 170-190 class deer have cost us 2250-3500. Some 190 class deer have cost more. Now we have a couple more companies thinking about booking but deer in Oklahoma are hard to come by.

[Bow Safari]

One more thing. 200 inch deer have cost us $4500-6000 depending on the quality. And one group of hunters I had to discount to $8500 for the hunt because someone in Ohio priced them for $6000 a piece. We usually sell them for $10000.

[ER Whitetails]

Sounds like to me that we have to many hunting preserves

[Bow Safari]

Don't think there is too many. Alot of them raise their own deer now. There are alot more deer than there are hunters is the main problem. Another problem is the loss of non corporate clients. We have to rely on the oil companies to bring groups in or we are screwed. Bad thing about that is they are just wanting to hunt in November and December. Most breeders here want the deer sold and gone in September. I cant do that and risk the deer surviving for 2 or 3 months until the hunt. Our preserve is 1200 acres and its too risky. If a guy wants to sell shooter bucks he needs to have pens to hold them until the preserve needs them, instead of rushing the preserve to pick them up and risk the deer dying putting the death risk on the preserve. My friend in Wisconsin has a preserve and he doesnt pay the breeders until the buck is shot. That way he and the breeder get paid at the same time. He assumes no death risk anymore because he has had so many die after being released in the preserve. We have already lost a 170" deer this year. $3500 down the drain. What sucks is the breeder got paid and I lost. Only in for a week and died. Me and the hunter found him dead the morning of the guys hunt. So its a risk all the way around. Got to be a better way to share a loss.

[Circle J Ranch]

Don't think there is too many. Alot of them raise their own deer now. There are alot more deer than there are hunters is the main problem. Another problem is the loss of non corporate clients. We have to rely on the oil companies to bring groups in or we are screwed. Bad thing about that is they are just wanting to hunt in November and December. Most breeders here want the deer sold and gone in September. I cant do that and risk the deer surviving for 2 or 3 months until the hunt. Our preserve is 1200 acres and its too risky. If a guy wants to sell shooter bucks he needs to have pens to hold them until the preserve needs them, instead of rushing the preserve to pick them up and risk the deer dying putting the death risk on the preserve. My friend in Wisconsin has a preserve and he doesnt pay the breeders until the buck is shot. That way he and the breeder get paid at the same time. He assumes no death risk anymore because he has had so many die after being released in the preserve. We have already lost a 170" deer this year. $3500 down the drain. What sucks is the breeder got paid and I lost. Only in for a week and died. Me and the hunter found him dead the morning of the guys hunt. So its a risk all the way around. Got to be a better way to share a loss.

I think that is a great discussion. How would a preserve and a farm work together to lower the risk of loss? Right now as you said it is on the ranch if a buck is lost ( you have already paid the farmer) But if the farmer puts a deer on your ranch for a later payment and it is lost its on the farmer. In your opinion what would be the common or middle ground to help both parties to share in the risk? I dont mean to put you on the spot and or anyone could chime in for that matter. But i feel as if it needs to be discussed. There are always better ways to do business, good business at that. And so often we here the problems with the industry but no solutions. I think you started some great dialog here.

[virgil]

Who payes for the farmers losses before he even sells to the preserve? The preserve I sell to will sometimes take deer and pay as he shoots them but he gives you a set price for each deer and if they die it is on him. He gets ins on the bigger ones and eats the loss on the smaller ones. We all have to eat losses some were down the line.

[ER Whitetails]

Bow safari
I'm all for sharing the loss if I can trust the preserve owner to be honest. I have heard so many horror stories of farmers being told that a buck died before it was shot but when asked to return the rack they wont.
On holding bucks until november or december for a preserve and then getting paid when they are shot, i would have to be assured that I wouldn't get stuck with them for another year.
I would love to have the kind of business relatioship you are talking about with a preserve but us farmer are in a vulnerable position. For me my bucks are what pays the feed bill. If I make this kind of deal with the wrong person my business will be done.

[fars]

It's kind of intresting that the deer industry is the only livestock industry where the producer is asked to take the risk of death after he sells the animal. When a person ships hogs, turkeys, cattle, sheep... ect , once the animal is sold it's no longer the farmer's responsiablity.
The farmer has taken the risk since the doe was bred until the buck is 4 years old on every deer already. Now he needs to take the risk after he/she sells the buck, when he has no control how the animal is handled, what other animals it is put in with..ect. Then get paid at some time in the future. It's all to the preserve's advantage. No farm can run that way long.

[ddwhitetails]

Very well put fars and I happen to agree....the farmer takes his risk (and expenses) growing the animal......when it leaves in good health it should be paid for......yes the preserves have their risks as well....that's the price for being in this business and we all have our own risks!

[Circle J Ranch]

I look at it this way:

I see the argument as deer farmers taking responsibility. But there is a double standard here. When we as deer farmers purchase breeding stock we expect health guarantees, reimbursement, or even replacement for lost stock. I also have lost some high dollar investments days or weeks after purchase and was told " Thats deer Farming" personally i will not ever do business with those people nor will i recommend there animals to anyone.Now as deer farmers we will not hold the same standard for a preserve. Hunting Preserves are not just a place to dump unwanted animals. Its an additional business relationship that may bring in additional income time and time again. Much like our breeding operations do.

Do i think it should be all on deer farmers NO should it be all on the preserves NO. I believe it is an interesting concept to come up with a creative way to share the investment. If you, us, or we could come up with a way to do this it could revolutionize the industry. I think of it as a preserve owner with less money lost means more money spent in marketing, up keep, and hunter luxuries that would ultimately bring them back. As a deer farmer having a place to move your animals year after year, covering feed bills, and growing the quality of our stock.

These relationships are a must for the growth and survival of our industry. If a shared venture that is beneficial for both parties could be developed it could be an answer to each farms stocker buck issues.

As deer farmers we buy from those we know and feel comfortable with. Those who treat us fare and honor there agreements. We will buy again and again from those people. This could be the same from preserves as well.

I unfortunately do not have the answer to this but would like to hear more on how some different farms and preserves work these issues out together. If you do have a business relationship between farm and preserve that works i would like to know more!

[LJwhitetails]

The farmer has kept them alive for 2 + years and putting them in a preserve for 1 reason with a bunch of other new ones is a recipe for disaster.
Our buyer "Bow Safari" has ask us to keep them right up until the last minute which was not easy but we managed.
I understand both sides of the fence and that is why we agreed to wait

[virgil]

I have one. I tell the preserve owner what I want if he likes the price he buys them. If he feels it is to much we wheel and deal a little til we agree. After this we shake hands and what ever was agreed upon is what we do. The best thing to do is build a relation ship with a preserve or two and stick together. When preserves buy deer they should always figure in the cost of loosing a few.

[Bow Safari]

I agree with everyone. Its a tough deal all the way around. Some bucks are just more delicate than others. I don't ever want to see one die but it does happen. We have native deer in our preserve also, but nothing big(130's). What scares me is a group of clients coming in after a particular buck and we find him dead. What do you do then? I'm not a wealthy man by no means and a $5000 loss can really throw me in a bind especially today having to cut prices to compete and close the deal on hunts. I wish I could afford to just throw 30 shooters in at the beginning of season and hope for the best, but from my experience the deer willl not do well out in a large area. The rut really kicks their butt for one, another problem is trying to keep them healthy, they lose alot of weight not being in their small pens with all you can eat groceries. So theres alot of things that can go wrong which makes me lose alot of sleep worrying this time of year after the bucks are released. I wish there was an easy fix for the farmer and the preserve cause I support both. If you don't have a place to go with the bucks they are just expensive yard ornaments. Back to the "what if the particular buck dies". If that happens Im in a tight spot. First things first we have to keep the hunter happy, we want him to come back. Do I eat the $5000 for the 200" deer when I sold the hunt for $8500? Cant just run to Walmart and replace him. The deer I lost last week was a 160-170. I watched that deer for several days, he never went to water. It was kind of hot that week, could he have died in 7 days from no water? I think so. Im willing to help you guys that raise deer make the same amount as I do but we have to figure something out that works for us both if that deer dies. I dont like turning bucks out a day or 2 before the hunt but, Dang it scares the heck out of me to lose one. I love whitetails but man this business will drive a guy insane with worries. My corporate hunters grew from 8 to 24 this year and I think next year will be even better but I dont know if my nerves can take it!!! Most of my hunters understand the risk on my part but it still doesnt replace the deer when he dies. Maybe the loss should be split down the middle. Dont know.....

[virgil]

I have a deer for 2_4 years and sell it for 5000 I have to feed him give him meds and then figure in all the costs of his mothers expences and the costs of all the bucks that died before I was able to sell them. So for a preserve to expect to just double his money In a couple months with no losses is not right. As a breeder we do all we can to keep our deer healthy until sold. Now it is the preserves turn to do all he can until the deer is shot.
See if you can keep the deer at the farm were you buy them after you pay for them. Tell him you will except full responsibilaty for the deer. This way you can shoot them as you bring them to your preserve. A nother thing you can do is build holding pens and just release them into your preserve as you need them.

[Bow Safari]

Virgil: My business is not just a couple month deal. I work year round. I started trying to book some of my clients back in Feb. plus we do hog hunts, and a few exotics. But believe me when there are no hunters here there is still plenty to do. Just maintenance on everything is alot of work. Over 10 miles of road in the preserve, 20 feeders to keep running, a lodge that sleeps 25, 6 miles of fence. So anyone that thinks its that easy to work 2 months and double your money just jump right in and do it. This same discussion is in this thread a couple time already. So no need in whipping a dead horse. I just tried to get on here and share my shooter prices to be nice and it turns into a snowball. All I know is the breeders can't survive without a place to go with their bucks. So everyone needs to work together orthe deer farming will go down the tubes because people cant afford to feed them. I dont want to raise my own deer. I have enough work and worry without that. Oh and any of you that want to come and help, come on down.

[Antlershed]

Bow Safari i appreciate your replies, its great to hear from a preserve owner on here. You make great points. I think the only way that we can work agreements is when buying multiple deer from one guy. Say you give a guy 15 k for 4 bucks, and you give another guy 2k for one buck, i think the guy you paid more to has some flexibility, but you cant expect a guy that only had one shooter for the year to split it, that might be the guys only income from his deer for the whole year. If I were selling to a preserve I would be willing to work with them a little if they pay fair and buy mulitiples. If they would lose one and they give me the rack from the dead buck for proof, i see nothing wrong with helping you recoup a little, especially if you were very fair with your prices and scored them right in front of my eyes, however i must be honest, if i only have one shooter to sell for the whole season (which is the case for me this year) I simply couldn't do it, I would be counting on that money to feed my other deer for a couple months. I think the preserve and the farmer need to talk to each other one on one during each sale, I dont think there is any way you can set a rule to go by, there are to many variables and no 2 situations will be alike, It has to be dealt with on a one on one basis.

[virgil]

Never mind thought I was giving you a few ideas or ways to help deal with your losses. Maybe I should say it this way you split all my losses for the deer I loose in a year with me and I will split all the losses you have after buying my deer. Not trying to fight but this would be the fairest way to split our losses. Sorry if I effended you in any way and I know you put more into your preserve than a couple months but so do I.

[Bow Safari]

Not offended at all Virgil. Thats how you figure things out by throwing it all out on the table. We all have investments to protect and none of us want to lose anything. Especially with the economy we have right now. We all just need to figure out what works best on every deal cause they are all different. Our businesses are dependent on one another and if we want the whitetail industry to survive we have to cooperate.

[fars]

This way you can shoot them as you bring them to your preserve. A nother thing you can do is build holding pens and just release them into your preserve as you need them.

There is your answer right there. The only other thing you can do is buy large groups from a single owner. If they were all raised together there is generally less fighting. Otherwise it's just how whitetails are. If you suffer to many losses and and aren't making money. You have two choices quit or lower your buying price so you can make a go of it.
Sharing losses while it sounds good will just not work out well. Bad feeling all round. It's better to pay less.