Whitetail Sub-species ?

[sharkey]

According to The Whitehead encyclopedia of deer,there is 38 sub species of Odocoileus verginianus.Which sub species is raised by the industry & what role is being taken to protect the rare phenotypes? Thanks Sharkey

[NYBill]

Biologists cant seem to decide how many are true subspecies anymore and how many should be recognized. O.v. virginianus is the type set but o.v. borealis, dakotas, ochrourus, theres popular ones that again, seem to be the same animal to some. Taxonimists are known to be either lumpers (all one animal) or splitters (many subspecies). Just like the bears, ursus. Americanus is the black bear, but as you go to the grizzly and brown bears, some see interior grizzlies, coastal grizzlies, browns, kodiak island, alaskan brown, and others just call them all ursus horribilis.

As for protecting the subspecies...my thinking is, our deer are captive reared, and to my knowledge, no state allows captive deer to be released back into the wild. The few that could escape are so outnumbered by the wild local deer so as to not change the mix any more than early restocking programs once did.

[sharkey]

NYBill,Thanks for the response. As you have an understanding of the situation,I would like to hear what you think, people with practical experience are as equally important as biologists who may have less experience.Is the sub species which people are keeping O.v.virginianus? Taxa is great, however it can not quantify behavioural & ecological differences between sub species.Has anyone noticed different behaviour to things like predator evasion ,mating strategies,parenting,etc,between the various sub species?Although your deer are captive,some people may find value in raising & maintaining some of the various phenotypes,just as people,enjoy raising piebald,white black & other domestic traits in deer.From an industry view,conserving sub species would gather good public acceptability. Cheers Sharkey

[NYBill]

I really dont think the whitetail subspecies have much in the way of behavioral trait differences per se. More likely just a product of their environment, which some could argue means the same thing. Mule deer stott while whitetails bound away from danger, but I dont think subspecies are that kind of different. To answer your question, like I mentioned earlier, Id say many of us have o.v. borealis, and the others I listed, for example.

[sharkey]

Thanks NYBill. I was what you would call a lumper regarding sub species .My experience only extends to fallow( Dama dama,Dama mesopotamica ),rusa (Rusa timorensis,Rusa moluccensis)& red deer(C.e hippelaphus,C.e pannoniensis)In regards to comparing sub species.I have never played with whitetail.I keep the sub species under the same controlled environment in separate adjacent enclosures.As your eye becomes better trained, not only does the differences in taxa become apparent ,the differences in behaviour do so to.Based upon my own experience I am now a splitter.Has anyone done this with whitetail? The differences may not be great,its the fact there is differences which is important. Regards Sharkey

[CurtisLloyd]

up north ours are the Dakota sub-species but we have ai'd ours so they are now mutts

I do know that the mass and thick hide and hair on our deer means they die quick in hot climates

[sharkey]

Fairdinkum,I love your honesty regarding your breeding Curtis (have read some of your posts & you shoot straight).Knowing that the dakota sub species fails to thrive down south does this stop people trying to introduce them to increase body size & a relative increase in antlers? Rhetorical question,feel free not to answer it .Cheers Mate.

[NYBill]

I think guys are more interested in EHD resistance when bringing dakota or borealis deer to Texas. Again, its sorta a closed environment, so breeding across sub-species to keep purity in strains isnt something I personally have heard anyone express.

[Uncle Harley]

NYBill I wondered if this was the Bill I knew LOL YIP! It's good to see you on here.

[CurtisLloyd]

we have AI'd our deer with semen from the US (Pennsylvania ) and we have found that if we AI the does we get without breeding back to one of our bucks ( even if it's 50% SK/ 50% US), we have a staggering death loss in our fawns. this requires us to skip a year now and then with our AI ... having some great bucks that are 2/3 - 3/4 Saskawanian lets us do this now... but believe me I hauled a lot of fawns to the "dead thing Bush"....also known as the coyote graveyard, to realize that their was a problem and no amount of work, animal husbandry or luck was going to change anything if I didn't acknowledge the problem and deal with it , I also think that there are some bloodlines that are "weaker" and even if it is the long way around I would AI breed a doe in order to get a doe a doe that could give me live and surviving fawns that I could then breed to the antler type I want.
I have refused to collect and sell semen to ( Southern Mo and Florida)because I believed it was a waste of time and result in a bunch of dead deer, I pointed them to Whitetail Exchange where they could get quality semen at market prices and from local sub species

[sharkey]

I wouldn't say its the long way round.I would say its the only way.After introducing new genes,it takes at least five generations of careful breeding to produce consistency in a herd.I have been watching for nearly 30 years as people cross English, German & Yugo reds.The F1 deer are great, the F2 still ok.Very few people have the patience,determination,& the ability to stay focused on the objective for the 5 plus generations required to successfully introduce new genes.One recipe card for producing good heads consistently is German\Yugo then take the F1 boy & put him over an English(warnham\woburn) hind.The resulting composite animals look great.But will they breed true???? This method requires access to the original genetics & more deer farmers recognise the value of keeping pure phenotypes.We even have a Warnham\Woburn society which promotes this English line. Cheers Sharkey

[sharkey]

Is It fair to say that "all" the whitetail on deer farms in Nth America are composites of several sub species?

Apart from health risk(spreading EHD,CWS,bluetounge,etc), which it would seem is a little over regulatory on deer farmers & not consistent with the true risk,is the escape of non indigenious genetics into wild populations the major concern for the wildlife authorities? Or the only concern?

How would a "silver bullet" (a probability) which destroyed the cells in a body which hosted a virus,thereby ending this threat,effect farming regs?

Would the anti's then use,the threat of polluting wild populations with artificial genetics as a reason to maintain the heavy regulatory requirements?

How would a farmer who only bred the indigenious sub species within its home range effect this debate?

Why do the "rehabers" have to undergo the same regulatory red tape given that they are keeping the indigenious species,(collected locally) & would have almost zero risk of introducing new disease or genetics?

Is anyone farming,keeping,restoring a "pure" sub species & if so what are your thoughts?

Cheers Sharkey

[Scott Heinrich]

Wow Curtis, you blew my breeding farm out of the water! We have used lots of Northern US and Canadian semen and have had no higher mortality with those offspring than with native fawns. I think the key is to use the introduced semen in a native doe then breed the progeny back to native genetics, then take the result of that breeding and introduce "northern" semen again and so on until you get a reasonably acclimated >75% northern deer with the ability to withstand the hot weather in the south and have some EHD resistance from the titers that have been incorporated in the deer from years os stacking genetics.

[ohdeer]

We have worked with many farms in Canada (including Saskatchewan) and we can assure you that the death loss in 100% native species appears similar to AI crosses. What DOES vary however are management techniques. Deer farmers all farm in individual ways and summers away from home, farms that don't vaccinate or monitor their fawns regularly (and prepared to treat on demand) may have a few smooth years but usually end up facing some tough years. Not knocking anybody, but honestly, fawn mortality is a factor faced by every deer farmer.

There probably are strengths and weaknesses to different bloodlines, but we have witnessed this with pure Canadian lines as well as US lines. The weaknesses may also be specific to certain bacteria on certain farms.

I would confidently recommend to both my US and CDN friends that Ai ing (either direction) is a safe and useful breeding strategy while keeping in mind certain factors such as EHD. Research indicates that even regional transferrence of genetics from one EHD zone to another EHD zone can have devastating effects not just limited to North/south.

I would suggest respectfully that if experiencing massive death loss in fawns, check your management strategies and include vaccination programs.

Respectfully,
Randy & Tara

[Scott Heinrich]

Well said Tara

[sharkey]

If environment was not an issue, why would nature have produced 38 sub-species?
Bergmann"s Rule?
Are O.v.borealis & O.v.dacotensis larger than O.v.seminolus & O.v.mcilhennyi?
Can one sub species carry a greater amount of body fat or a heavier coat than another?
Are the same amount of meds,vaccines, monitoring & costs required for indigenous(wild) & non indigenous(domestic) whitetail?

Is it fair to say that all the whitetail on deer farms in Nth America are composites of several sub species?

Cheers Sharkey

[dearjohn]

If environment was not an issue, why would nature have produced 38 sub-species?
Bergmann"s Rule?
Are O.v.borealis & O.v.dacotensis larger than O.v.seminolus & O.v.mcilhennyi?
Can one sub species carry a greater amount of body fat or a heavier coat than another?
Are the same amount of meds,vaccines, monitoring & costs required for indigenous(wild) & non indigenous(domestic) whitetail?

Is it fair to say that all the whitetail on deer farms in Nth America are composites of several sub species?

Cheers Sharkey

Where do you get info on , 38 sub species. do you have a link?

[sharkey]

G'day Dearjohn
I'm not a good interweb user,I do have a pretty good library on deer.Though whitetail is lacking because we have so few & they don't thrive down here.
The "Whitehead encyclopedia of deer" has good info on the distribution of sub species.
It was apparently reduced to thirty in 1984 (Baker),but I have never seen the revised list,& have several publications since then which still lists 38.

Wild Rivers pointed out that wildlife agencies relocated thousands of deer from various sub species around the country in the middle of last century.
I dug out "Quality Whitetails" a 1995 publication from QDMA & it has great references on where from,where too & how many whitetail were relocated.
It would be great to see something on, if these relocations were successful & or if it changed the local phenotype & how.

Cheers Sharkey

[dearjohn]

Thanks Sharkey
Almost like each State or so had their own sub species. Now I know why Michigan deer are sought after most. :)