percentage bucks and does

[CurtisLloyd]

We all want more bucks than does.....right. I just went through our records and this is the tenth fawning season since we started deer farming. we started with 4 does, one buck and a buck fawn to bottlefeed. we now fawn 25 - 30 does each year. the fawns over this time have been 114 doe fawns and 111 buck fawns, less than 3% diff. what are some other farm's longer term results to give a good sample?

[WRW_2]

Lets see

2006 - 0 buck fawns / 2 doe fawns. 2 does, 1 didn't fawn
2007 - 6 buck fawns / 1 doe fawn. 3 does
2008 - 2 buck fawns / 0 doe fawns. 2 does, 1 didn't fawn
2009 - 5 buck fawns / 2 doe fawns. 4 does, Still waiting for 1 to fawn

That makes 13 buck fawns / 5 doe fawns over the last 4 years.

Bad thing is, we're a small farm and running out of room quick. If we were at 50/50 or so, at least we could have sold some of the doe fawns to keep our numbers down. I know most guys would be happy with this, but in our situation, it's kind of messed up our plans. Not that it's a bad thing, but it just took up all our room quick. We'll see what number 4 has this year and go from there.

I know it's not a very long period of time, but that's what we've had since we started back in 2005 with 2 bred does.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Don't take this as the Gospel, but I have been told that if you reduce the square footage on your breeders during the rut, Mother Nature automatically puts more buck fawns in your pens to help slow the population rate. I have no experience in this, but I have been told this by a few experienced farmers.

[Spiderman]

I don't have my long term stats here now , but this year we have 13 fawns and only two bucks......our breeder pens are , and always have been , about 200 feet square. I guess if you are wanting some females born , bring them to me for reproduction.....Jim:confused:

[IndependenceRanch]

This year we are 10 does and 7 bucks so far. I have 3 adult does and one doe fawn from last year left to fawn yet.
Every year we have more does than bucks and I am tired of it. At least this year we had twice as many does fawning as other years so we have more bucks to carry over now. I am tired of only having 2 or 3 bucks in each age group.

A friend of mine was going over all his records over the years and had some really interesting stats on sex ratios, and fawning dates all compiled onto one sheet. It was kinda cool to look at.

[Buckskin]

To date I have had 10 Bucks 1 doe. It must be in the water. Two does left to fawn.

[Greg M]

We have three does left to fawn and we are at 8 bucks and 8 does.

[wvdeerman]

Here is how I see it, and it works for me. I have seen other discussions on this same topic and it has worked for others as well.

I remove ALL my bucks from the breeding pens each fall..except for the one used for breeding. I take that years buttons bucks out also. I take all my bucks, except for the breeder, to another farm where they are raised for shooters. I usually keep about 8-10 breeding does and one, maybe two, bucks for stud. Seperate pens for each group of does and buck. This makes the ratio of bucks to does very low and out of balance. Mother nature in turn will attempt to compansate for this difference and produce more buck fawns.

Now, at my friends farm where the bucks are raised for shooters, he does the same thing. He has a seperate pen set up on the other side of the farm. It is out of site and down wind of the breeding pens. So the breeding does are kept from contact from this group of bucks and are unaware of there presence. Keeping the ration of bucks to does within the breeding area out of balance.

Each year we have consistantly produced more buck fawns than doe fawns. Over the past 3 years on my farm we have produced 48 fawns total...32 of those fawns have been bucks. That is 66% of our fawns are buck fawns. And that my friends is money in the bank !!

I do understand that not everyone can seperate their deer like this on their farm. We didn't intentionally set out to do this, but in a sense we have tricked mother nature and made it work to our advantage.

[brianjames]

I still think its 50:50. You get an X or a Y chromosome. How can an egg pick the sex of a spem? In some reptiles sex is determined by environment. Natural selection may influence sex ratios in the wild. If you get enough of a sample size (100 or 1000). I think you will see this. I don't think any type of "voodoo" magic will help you get more bucks. Sexing of semen can be done.

Does anyone have any real research on mammals to help us out with this?

[ANTLER VALLEY]

The boys in TX tell me that probably 90% of doe fawns give birth to buck fawns.

[John Swank]

Does anyone have any real research on mammals to help us out with this?

Brian,
Here is a link to a post with some research documents and their finding on fetal sex ratios in deer. I do know that some of the research was done at Rachelwood Preserve, which is/was a research enclosure in PA, about 15-20 miles from me. Not sure what they use it for now.... :confused:

http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showpost.php?p=3493&postcount=27

[wvdeerman]

To answer the Brian James comment. We aren't suggesting that the doe/egg is choosing between sperm, we are suggesting that the buck is producing more of one over the other. It is mother natures way of attempting to balance the ratio. I went back and checked my records for the past 9 years of being in business. I have always removed ALL the bucks and button bucks each fall only leaving the breeders on the property. We have birthed 127 fawns total with only 49 of these fawns being does and the remaining 78 fawns were bucks. That is 61% buck fawns over a 9 year period!

As far as I have seen in my breeding pens and in the wild, Antler Valley is correct with his comment. ALMOST always, if a doe breeds her first fall then she will have a buck fawn. It has been 100% true with 7 out of 7 does breeding at approx. 7 months of age, giving birth to buck fawns in the past 9 years of business.

Some of you may be skeptical. I guess that is your choice. I am simply sharing my results. In a sense we are all research facilities for these animals. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe the Good Lord rewards me for trying to live a good christian life. All I know is that it works for me and I will continue doing it.

I guess many of you would be skeptical if I said I have produced 9 out of 11 fawns so far this year being piebald. And a total of 30 out of 48 are piebald over the past 3 years. Very few of our does have piebald genetics. Many of them are well bred does that come from strong, well bred bloodlines. And yet they still produce piebalds.

Like I said, I am just reporting my results at MY farm. If it ain't broke, don't fix it !!

[brianjames]

So, why would a doe have one sex over the other BIOLOGICALLY?

[John Swank]

So, why would a doe have one sex over the other BIOLOGICALLY?

Brian,
If you get a chance, you should really read the documents. They explain a lot of what you are asking.



John

[Don H]

The info referenced by John Swank above is very interesting to say the least. My own observations and records indicate that there very well may be some correllation to a does physical condition at the time of breeding and her fawns, both in terms of sex and numbers. In my early years of raising deer I was just learning to properly meet their nutritional needs. Of course I was focusing on growing bucks who were fed to meet their genetic potential for large antlers. As time went by I had tweeked my feed recipe numerous times to the point where my bucks were not only growing larger racks when compared to the same age classes on my farm in years past, but the bucks were also in much better body condition and by mid-summer were downright FAT. I have always fed my does the same feed ration as the bucks. When I got to the point where I felt my bucks were being fed a ration that they did well on, I also noticed that the fawn production of my does also made a noticable change ....... but NOT for the better. In the early years when my feed ration was poorer and my bucks did not do as well (although they were clearly healthy) my does would almost always have twins with an occassional set of triplets. Single fawns were unheard of and the buck fawns clearly outnumbered doe fawns by a wide margin. When my feed recipe finally became fine tuned for the bucks my does then started having a lot more singles, rarely had triplets and the doe fawns started outnumbering bucks by a wide margin. It was really just late last summer when I put this all together and my does were plenty fat at that time. I immediately started backing off their feed intake to get them into poorer body condition before breeding. Then about the time I inseted CIDRS for AI, I also started the does back on full feed to get them gaining weight. The does never got thin as I had my eyes opened too late and started the process of having my does a little thin too late in the season. None the less, this year my fawn ratio was exactly 50-50 bucks to does, much better than the previous couple of years.

This summer I am going to have my does in a little worse body condition and then about 3 weeks before breeding I am going to put them on full feed and get them gaining weight as breeding time nears. For those of you who are experienced with other livestock (especially swine) you may know what "flushing" is .... basically it is the practice of having your females in a condition where they are gaining weight at the time of conception. This practice has proven through research to increase the size of litters in hogs substantially. Any hog farmer will also tell you that a sow that is fat at the time of breeding wil likely have a smaller litter. I believe the same principals applies to whitetails based on my experience. If anyone read the Whitetail Heartbeat article on Jonathan Bell and his buck "All-Star", he touches on this very subject and I concur with his position. For you guys that are getting a high number of buck fawns, you are likely doing the right thing with your does (probably more by accident) but if you are feeding your bucks the same feed you likely have a situation where you could improve antler production with some feed changes.

Note- this is all just my opion based on about 35 years of raising about every kind of livestock. Please dont get offended if I stepped on any toes. I dont claim to be an expert on anything but just always try to learn more than I already know.

[John Swank]

This summer I am going to have my does in a little worse body condition and then about 3 weeks before breeding I am going to put them on full feed and get them gaining weight as breeding time nears.

Don,
That was great information. This topic has always fascinated me and I often find myself reading a lot of the research papers based on other livestock.

I do have a question, as you seem to be the most willing to openly share your information and findings. Is it possible for you to create three different groups of doe as test groups?

If so, my theory for the first group of live bred doe is, instead of raising the nutritional plain three weeks "prior" to breeding, you raise it three days "after" breeding. My reasoning for this is due to the condition of the doe "during breeding". I think three days after will have more of an impact then a doe already on a nutritional increase during breeding. It's just a theory.

I am very familiar with nutritional flushing at three weeks prior to breeding and have been recommending A/I clients to do the same for the last several years. However, I was mainly concentrating on higher conception rates, rather than manipulating the fetal sex ratio.

The second group of live bred doe would have the nutritional plain raised three weeks prior to breeding, just as you are planning.

The third group of doe would also be fed the same as group two and then A/I'd at 68 hours. My theory on this comes from A/I'ing at different times and a noticeable variation in sex ratios with the time differences. I noticed when breeding at 58 hours there was a lopsided number of doe fawns born. When A/I'ing at 60 hours, the differences where closer. When A/I'ing at 62 hours it seems as though we are getting 50/50. By accident, I ended up A/I'ing at 65-66 hours and the farm ended up with 70% buck fawns.

I have never repeated the breeding at 65-66 hours and it just may be dumb luck. But what has me slightly convinced there may be something to it is the research document on fetal sex ratio and the estrus cycle. The research claims that doe bred later in estrus indeed produce more buck fawns.

So I guess the only way to find out if there truly is a way to manipulate the fetal sex ratio is to conduct a study. This is why I am asking you if you would be interested, or have the means to conduct such a study, and offer your honest conclusion.

I think it would be great information either way...

Regards,
John

[brianjames]

I have a pen that is really big. All single sire breeding, no AI. All are pretty fat. All fed "Big buck feed." Of about 50 born this year, most all have been doubles, and 40 out of the 50 fawns have been bucks. 80%! I have one doe in there, "Sallie Mae," that is probably more wide than she is long. She had two buck fawns.

I still think it is random, since a buck can only give an X or a Y chromosome

They must have herd me whispering about puting all the does in the preserve this fall!! HAHA!

John,
I am going to look at the article. I did notice that in the first paragraph of the first article that it said some studies comfirmed the nutrition influecing sex ratos while others contridicted it. It will be interesting to find other studies. I will look further into the topic when I have time. I have 130 fawns in my bottle barn right now, so it may be awhile!!HAHA

Don,
I agree with you about body condition influencing conception rates, and even number of fawns, but I'm still skeptical about it influencing sex ratios.

[John Swank]

John,
I am going to look at the article. I did notice that in the first paragraph of the first article that it said some studies comfirmed the nutrition influecing sex ratos while others contridicted it. It will be interesting to find other studies. I will look further into the topic when I have time. I have 130 fawns in my bottle barn right now, so it may be awhile!!HAHA

Yea, the abstract is kind of misleading, but it goes on to explain the contradictions. It makes a lot of sense if you absorb and consider the research information.

130 fawns..... :eek: That's about 128 too many for me.... :D
Sounds like you are enjoying it though, and that's all that matters...

Have fun!!
John

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

i was just wondering i had 6 does give me 18 fawns 3 a/i does 6 bucks,2 doe and 3 live covers had 8 does and 2 bucks all in the same pen but out of 5 does we sold all transported to other farms very early in preg all only had singles and doubles do you think this is because of stress from move and a new farm just wondering W/S "JUST LIVIN THE DREAM "

[gcw matt]

Guys I'm still thinking that second cycle breeding will produce more bucks. This year I am 6 for 8 buck to does.(1 doe left to fawn) This is my third year in the business, so I don't have long term data, but it worked this year. By the way 6 buck is great! I have had 4 bucks born over the previous two years and all have died. Its hard to raise shooters when the bucks die.(I have only lost 1 doe). Of the Bucks 1 broke both front legs, 1 died shipping home, 1 to EHD, and 1 was hit by lightning.

[Don H]

John,
I do not have the facilities nor the number of does that would be needed for a meaningful test. Since you mentioned the results you have had with AIing at various intervals after removal of CIDRS, I will note that I have kept detailed records for the last 3 years on my AI does. One of the variables that I am noting is the time from CIDR removal til the AI is done. I have heard the theory that waiting towards the end of the window to AI will increase the number of bucks whereas AIing at the begining will increase the number of doe fawns. Right now my sample is too small to come to any conclusions. Here is what I can tell you - the year that I ended up with the highest percentage of doe fawns, my does were the fattest they have ever been going into the breeding season AND I had crowded them into a small pen to take advantage of the theory that crowded does have more buck fawns. (that obviously didnt work!) I am not sure what the complete answer is but I tend to believe that it could be possible through various practices to influence a doe herd to give birth to 70%+ buck fawns year after year. We just have to keep plugging away and testing different theories.


Brian,
I kinda got off topic when I brought up flushing and nutrition and body condition of does. You are right, this does effect conception rates and even number of fawns born per doe. However I am not so quick to dismiss the idea that it cant also effect sex ratios. Mother Nature has things in place to combat various issues such as climate and habitat conditions that we will never fully understand. You could be right in that a buck produces X and Y chromosomes and it is simply random which one fertilizes an egg but I am not going to give up on trying to manipulate my does towards having bucks fawns. Good luck!

[brianjames]

John, I'm having a ball just a little sleep deprived, but ill be alright.

Don, keep us updated as much as you canI wouldn't mind having mostly bucks as well...

[ddwhitetails]

Don that just seems to crazy to believe........because it is the buck that determines the sex......not saying it's not true....just hard to understand how that could effect the gender of the fawns.......crazy stuff!!

[Wooden acres]

You know we may never completly understand how we get more fawns of one sex over the other . When I started I just buck bred a bunch of doe's I bought to a so so 8 point buck, he gave me about 50/50 buck to doe ratio . I then switched to what I thought was a better buck 10 pointer scored 203 when sold that gave me almost all buck fawns. I think in two years of breeding with him I only have 3 doe's here out of him . Then I had a chance to breed to Buck Longwhitz's Boudacous buck 226 and I really wanted some buck fawns, pretty much the same group of doe's but NOT !! He throw all doe fawns and I only got 2 buck fawns that year and 10 doe fawns . Now that stunk, not to mention he didn't breed all my doe's either ...maybe to old he was 11 !! Then I swtiched to an RPM yearling pretty much the same group of doe's and got 15 buck fawns and 3 doe fawns. This year AIed and got 9 buck fawns and 7 doe fawns from the AIed doe's . Still got some doe's to fawn from the RPM son now 2 natural breedings but he's once again almost all buck fawns so far . Go figure !! What about morning breeding AIing verses night breeding ? I AIed at night this year .

[Spiderman]

I will qualify my results this year....I live bred with two different bucks and we had four does we bought live bred with three different bucks on three different farms. The does we bought were with bucks in pens with no other bucks around at all , I had about a dozen bucks in adjacent pens on my place. The does we bought gave us all doe fawns..... we will be selling or trading doe fawns . Jim

[Don H]

Right now I am more interested in eliminating as many single births as possible to the older does. I think flushing may be the answer to this issue. As far as manipulating the sex of the fawns ... welll I think that one will take some time to figure out, IF it ever happens. I know for every person that believes in a certain method, there is another that will tell you it doesnt work. For example, take the theory that by crowding your does in a small pen prior to breeding it will cause a false over-population and the does will then have more buck fawns. The year I tried that I got more doe fawns than ever but then again that was the year that my does were the fattest going into the breeding season. If it is possible to manipulate the sex of fawns it will likely take at least a couple of factors working together and maybe more. For example, maybe it will take a crowded pen along with breeding late in the window when they will actually stick. A breeder may intentionally be doing one of these things and the others just happen to fall into place so he believes in the 1 thing he is going out of his way to do when in reality several factors are coming together more by accident than design.

AS for the buck part of the equation, I am sure that some bucks throw more doe fawns and others throw more doe fawns. This surely accounts for some farms having skewed buck/doe ratios. I am also aware that it is possible to sex semen to produce either females or males as this is done some in the dairy business. Somehow the X sperm and Y sperm are seperated before the semen is froze. Since Wooden is a dairyman maybe he can shed some light on this subject and give his opinion as to the chances that this technology may find its way to the whitetail industry.

[Don H]

I remember several years ago that a friend of mine and his wife were trying to conceive a baby and they had a book on "determining the sex of your child" so I did a quick internet search and came up with the following which I "cut & paste" from an article on this subject. This just re-affirms my suspicion that it may be possible to manipulate our whitetails to give us more buck fawns.


Basically, men produce two types of sperms, the X (female) and Y (male). According to Dr. Shettles' studies the y-sperms are smaller, weaker, but faster than their siblings x-sperms, which are bigger, stronger, but slower.

Based on this fact, there are several things you can do to "favor" the conception of boys or girls:

(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have sex, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have sex 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having sex from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.

(2) The pH of the women's tract is also very important. A more acidic environment favors girls, since it will kill the weaker y-sperms first, leaving a greater quantity of x-sperms available to fertilize the egg. On the other hand, a more alkaline environment favors boys. Shettles recommends a douche of water and vinegar (acid) immediately before intercourse to favor a girl; a douche of water and baking soda (alkaline) will help for a boy.


My thoughts after reading the above was that #1 basically supports the idea that breeding later after the removal of CIDRS could very well produce more bucks as has been theorized and #2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the sex ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the sex ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.

[Wooden acres]

Don you should be able to maniputate your doe's not having just one fawn with PMSG (pregnant mare serum gonadotropin ) and GnRH ( gonadotropin release hormone ). Then you have HCG too (human chorionic gonadotropin ). HCG and GnRH are used to get super ovulation when we flush cattle . We think the use of these prostaglandins will shorten times of heat , so breeding times get more important but we could be wrong . Your right sexed semen is readily available in the cattle indusrty in red 1/4 cc straws but conception is lower than normal unsexed semen so far . I also believe and it's just me that some females will settle much more to either a Y or X sperm and I think it's because of the chemical make up within certain females will allow the enzyme of either an X or Y sperm to penitrate that egg easier or faster then that sperm with fertilize the egg . Not sure if I'm saying this right or not . There are some bulls and some cows we farmers beleive will almost always have the same sex offspring, but hey we're farmers we're not paid to be smart ...lol Just my opinion .

[wvdeerman]

Don H,

Thanks for a great article full of information. This does go to support my statement on a prior thread "What determines the sex of the fawn"?

I knew there was a reason that some does were predisposed to producing fawns of one sex over another. I was correct in assuming that their vaginal secretions acted as a spermicide and discouraged sperm of one sex while encouraging sperm of the other sex. It is Mother Natures way of attempting to balance the buck to do ratio.

Perhaps it is the acidic level in my feed and dirt that has helped me produce more bucks than does over the years. Or it is the fact that I remove all bucks except the studs from our property each fall before breeding season. As one skeptic stated that "VOODOO" magic was unlikely involved. Whatever it is, I will continue the same routine and hope the results continue to be the same.

[Don H]

Ross, Thanks for the input. I actually increased my dosage of PMSG last fall from 1cc to 1.2 cc and I still had 28.5% of the does give birth to singles of those does that took to the AI. I am not happy with more than 10% of mature does giving birth to singles. Am I expecting too much? What dosage of PMSG are the rest of you giving your does?

wvdeerman, if you find something that works for you then by all means keep on doing it. I am not sure that there is anything short of sexing the sperm that is going to work across the board on every farm. I just like to hear as much input from others as possible and then consider what changes I need to make on my farm.

[John Swank]

(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have sex, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have sex 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having sex from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.

I agree, as research concludes in the years with lower buck populations, there were a higher number of buck fawns born. This is theorized as happening due to having a heavy population of doe and less buck to breed them at the early onset of heat/estrus/ovulation. I too am starting to see a pattern from the breeding times from CIDR removal - based over the last 6 years of A/I'ing 100-300 doe a year. I indeed think there is something to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it yet.

Here is a quote from another topic --> (http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showpost.php?p=3530&postcount=33)

Low buck populations with a heavy doe population would lead to doe being bred later in estrus than with a heavy population of buck - more buck can breed more doe closer to the onset of estrus. A low buck population results in a higher buck fawn ratio due to doe being bred later in estrus, statistically speaking.



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________





#2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the sex ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the sex ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.


Don, I agree 100% as the research conducted on whitetails by Louis J. Verme in 1983 touched on the very subject of stress and the PH levels, along with the temperature, of the uterus at the time of breeding.

Here is a quote from another topic --> (http://www.deerforums.com/vbforums/showpost.php?p=3530&postcount=33)

Stress during estrus can also be a big factor as it causes the adrenal gland to produce higher levels of adrenaline, which suppress luteinizing hormone and other reproductive hormones including estrogen that can change the PH level and temperature of the uterus.



This is a fascinating topic to say the least. I feel confident that moving forward we will one day be able to manipulate the fetal sex ratio - to a certain degree - without the use of sexed semen.

Keep the brain storming info coming......



.

[Droptine]

our breeder pens are , and always have been , about 200 feet square.

Spiderman,
Does this mean 200' x 200' or 200 square feet?

[Spiderman]

200' x 200' ....a little longer than wide. They don't have to do much chasing and each pen has a brush pile in it so if I had an aggressive buck , he can't corner a doe and kill it. I saw this in the wild while trapping one year....a buck was chasing a doe and she ran up to a brush pile along a field and just circled it over and over to stay away from the buck. Several times she headed out but always returned as he closed in and did the "merry go round" move. I thought it would be a good idea in a pen so bucks could not corner does or give relief to any deer being hassled by another one. I had watched a buck in my pen doing small circles in the middle of the pen while a doe ran the perimeter endlessly tiring her out a lot. With the brush pile just back from a corner about 40 feet , they can stop behind it for a break. They also use them to lay behind and it works 360 degrees as a wind break . Of course the bucks clean their antlers on them instead of my fences , too . Jim

[CMore]

Over the past 3 years we had

07-4buck 1doe
08-6buck 4doe
09-5buck 10doe

All that we had done diff. pen size, feed , 2 years live bred, changed AI bucks

[CurtisLloyd]

ten years of deer farrming ai, natural, big pen, small pen, nine breeder bucks, 10 ai sires, crevical, laproscopic....... 119 doe fawns..........118 buck fawns.
supports the coin flip theory

[Scott Heinrich]

If you want to control the number of buc vs. doe fawns you will have there is only one way...........If you want more buck fawns, pray for doe fawns.....If you want more doe fawns, pray for buck fawns.....I believe God also has a sense of humor!

[gcw matt]

I think you are on to something Scott!! I wanted some doe's out of my AI this year. 2 of the 3 does took to AI, and I am very happy to say I have 4 AI buck fawns, and no doe.

[rockingH]

Every year we have been wanted does trying to build our herd and we have had 3bucks for every 1 doe . We AI ed 3 years ago and live bread the last 2 all same results .

[dearjohn]

I remember several years ago that a friend of mine and his wife were trying to conceive a baby and they had a book on "determining the sex of your child" so I did a quick internet search and came up with the following which I "cut & paste" from an article on this subject. This just re-affirms my suspicion that it may be possible to manipulate our whitetails to give us more buck fawns.


Basically, men produce two types of sperms, the X (female) and Y (male). According to Dr. Shettles' studies the y-sperms are smaller, weaker, but faster than their siblings x-sperms, which are bigger, stronger, but slower.

Based on this fact, there are several things you can do to "favor" the conception of boys or girls:

(1) The most important aspect of all is timing of intercourse during the monthly cycle. The closer to ovulation you have sex, the better the chances to have a boy, because the y-sperms are faster and tend to get to the egg first. If you have sex 3 days or more before ovulation, the better your chances to conceive a girl, because the weaker y-sperms tend to die sooner and the x-sperms will be available in greater quantity whenever the egg is released. On the other hand, having sex from 2 days before ovulation, through a few days after ovulation, is better for conceiving a boy. Around the 2-day point -- 48 hours before ovulation -- seems to be the 50/50 mark.

(2) The pH of the women's tract is also very important. A more acidic environment favors girls, since it will kill the weaker y-sperms first, leaving a greater quantity of x-sperms available to fertilize the egg. On the other hand, a more alkaline environment favors boys. Shettles recommends a douche of water and vinegar (acid) immediately before intercourse to favor a girl; a douche of water and baking soda (alkaline) will help for a boy.


My thoughts after reading the above was that #1 basically supports the idea that breeding later after the removal of CIDRS could very well produce more bucks as has been theorized and #2 may support the notion that maybe feed related issues or body condition can sway the sex ratio of fawns by affecting the pH in a does reproductive organs and thus sway the sex ratio of the fawns. Just some food for thought for all to chew on.

Sounded good to me

[Whitetail Deer Farmer]

This was discussed in the old forums where I was registered as Whitepinedeer.
You are forgetting about The Trivers-Willard hypothesis,
Studies on wild populations indicate that as population densities increase the number of bucks produced will decrease, this is called the Trivers-Willard hypothesis.
During the 1940s studies showed that the larger number of Doe in a given area produced more buck fawns and in a given area where the larger number of Bucks were that more Doe fawns were produced.
So it was determined that you should start early in the season by removing as many bucks as possible from your herd and neighboring pens to get more buck fawns. And making your pens as large as possible
This is nature’s way of perpetuating the species.

[dearjohn]

This was discussed in the old forums where I was registered as Whitepinedeer.
You are forgetting about The Trivers-Willard hypothesis,
Studies on wild populations indicate that as population densities increase the number of bucks produced will decrease, this is called the Trivers-Willard hypothesis.
During the 1940s studies showed that the larger number of Doe in a given area produced more buck fawns and in a given area where the larger number of Bucks were that more Doe fawns were produced.
So it was determined that you should start early in the season by removing as many bucks as possible from your herd and neighboring pens to get more buck fawns. And making your pens as large as possible
This is nature’s way of perpetuating the species.

Sounds good to me also.

[Warnerade]

I disagree with the natural selection theory for choosing sex in a fenced in area. That theory may work great in the wild over periods of tim, and in fact it does. However, it is very hard to "manipulate" natural selection. Sex is determined by a coin-flip basically, some bucks may produce more X sperms and some may produce more Y, that could be dependent on the bucks biology itself or random chance in the semen sample. I am by no means telling anyone to change what they're doing, as stated already, if it aint broke don't fix it, but there are certain things that just cannot be determined, at least with our current state of technology

[dearjohn]

Sounds good to me also. The first and third theory could be seen under a microscope . or not?

[sharkey]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned iodine yet.
This is my experience.
Iodine effects the sex ratio in two ways.
A female foetus requires much more iodine than a male.A deficit leads to spontaneous abortion of female calves/fawns,so lower fawning rate but higher male to female ratio.
Too much iodine in the stags/bucks diet will over stimulate the thyroid gland, producing more Y sperm.
Cheers Sharkey

[dearjohn]

Sharkey how do you add iodine.

[sharkey]

If there is a deficit in hinds/does,I use Iodised salt in either a solid or liquid lick,depending on species (sambar will not touch a soild lick,but love a liquid).
Iodine deficency is not very common,it seems to be on poorer soils down here.By picking up on this,I've seen several herds pick up their weening averages & balance sex ratios.
Iodine for the sires can be in their feed.The safest way would be using a seaweed based meal.(Iodine is also a very common antiseptic)
I first became aware of this when several herds of deer I was involved with consistently produced 70/30, male/female,sex ratios.Goat breeders,seem to know more about this & by following their advice and lowering the iodine in the feed,sex ratios returned to normal.
Deer are farmed for many reasons here not just trophys,& good hinds/does can often bring more money than the boys.
Cheers Sharkey

[dearjohn]

thanks Sharkey

[keith]

22 Buck fawns,4 doe fawns! It will probably never happen again.

[Gehringer Deer Ranch]

So far, we've had 3 buck fawns and 2 doe fawns. 2 more doe to go.

[troyship]

9 bucks, 1 doe and 4 left. Hope they keep it up!!!

[Wild Rivers Whitetails]

We have been raising deer for over 17 years now and have a very large herd - about 600 deer. Over the years we have found that things will average out to about 50-50. You can get one year skewed one way or the other, or one or two pens skewed one way or the other. We do find that we usually have a few more bucks than does, but nothing significant. You need a lot of deer over a lot of years to establish any sort of pattern.

[Simonson]

28 bucks and 12 does I am half done and I hope the ratio stays this way! Goodluck with your deer! JIM

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

We have an 11 year old Bucky daughter that had her first buck last year and her second this year! Late bloomer I guess!

[TRIPLE R WHITETAILS]

Last year we had 12 bucks 5 doe...this year so far , 10 doe 4 bucks...seems to work itself out over time

[Buckskin]

Last year 6 bucks 3 doe. So far this year 7 doe 2 bucks. I think you might be right... it al works itself out. Rick

[Gehringer Deer Ranch]

We had 5 buck and 4 doe this year.

[Eslabon Ranch]

Down here in Texas there are several Ranches that are using sexed semen.
I have been told that after the straws are put up there are approximately 90% male semen in the male straws and vise versa 90% female in the female sexed straws. Conception rates are low due to the low semen survival rates. Would it have been nice if this was around when PA Geronimo was around, perhaps they should try this with BM Bill or other sires that produce one way or another? Email me if you would like to discuss this further, I know it's kind of way out there.
http://www.eslabonranch.com