Darting ????

[dbocoke]

I was wondering the dosage for putting down this years fawns to move to another location, they are to wild to catch without hurting them. also what would be a close dosage for putting an adult doe but not knocking her completely out for a long period of time. thanks in advance.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

With the mixture of 5cc Xylazine(100mg) per bottle of Telazol, I would use 1/2 cc for the fawns. For the adult does I would use 1 1/2cc. I don't understand not wanting them ''completely out'' or ''long period of time'', because you should be reversing them with Tolazine anyway...I would. Hope I've helped.

[Scott Heinrich]

Regardless of the dosage rate you use, if you use Telazol, you will have to wait at least 1 hour before the Tolazine can be used to reverse the animal. Telazol has to metabolize and is not reversable. Maybe you should consider M-99 or Bam. These can be reversed immediately, reducing the time of anesthesia.

[sharkey]

dbocoke
Telazol is an anesthetic.
Xylazine is a tranquiliser.
The telazol is not reversed by the tolazine,just the xylazine is.
You should wait 45 mins for the telazol to metabolise before reversing the xylazine.
This is less important with telazol than ketamine,due to the diazepalm in the mix,however a good practice when using any cyclohexane.

Your doe should be given the correct dose as this exposes her to less stress & risk.

Anyone using these drugs who has trouble comprehending the above post should consider doing a good capture course.
Any doses should be discussed with your vet & used under your vets "supervision".

Every capture exposes your animals to some risk, understanding the dangers of these drugs will minimise that risk.

Cheers Sharkey

[sharkey]

You beat me to it Scott.

Cheers Sharkey

[jason e]

.5cc BAM,works great!

[Sandridge Whitetails]

I was wondering the dosage for putting down this years fawns to move to another location, they are to wild to catch without hurting them. also what would be a close dosage for putting an adult doe but not knocking her completely out for a long period of time. thanks in advance.

Sorry dbocoke that only 2 of us attempted to answer your actual questions. If you are in fact using Xylazine/Telazol mix, let me reiterate what I've already said and give you some facts through experience. Mix 5cc of Xylazine(100mg) and not 6cc like many do because it is the breaking line in effective potency. My deer that normally go down with 2cc of tranq mixed 5cc per bottle will all too often find me sneaking up behind them to push another 1/2cc in them when I use 6cc per bottle. When reversing with Tolazine you match the exact amount of Tolazine with what you gave to knock them down and give it intramuscular, aspirating your syringe to make sure you are not in a vein. Contrary to what you've been told above, DO NOT wait to give the reversal. In fact give it as quickly as possible. Reason: Your worst enemy when a deer is under the influence of Xylazine is asperated pneumonia(which results in death 10 days to 2 weeks later), caused by the deer's inability to swallow while under the influence of the Xylazine, and brought about when stomach contents intrude into their throat. They suck these stomach contents into their lungs instead of swallowing them back down due to their inability to do so. I dart, I saw, I move, and/or I treat, I reverse, and they're always up walking around easily within the time these guys are telling you to wait. Trust me on this. I have the experience of tranquilizing well over 150 deer in the last 3 years, all of which were reversed as soon as possible, and all without incident ( whatever that incident would be I have no idea) as well as the corroboration of a vet that has mentored me and is very involved in the deer industry and raises deer himself. Note: Book smart and field smart can be 2 different things!!

[sharkey]

150 deer in three years.
Good for you Mark,cant wait for the book.
Cheers Sharkey

PS. For those interested a good capture course & a good vet relationship is time & money well spent.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

150 deer in three years.
Good for you Mark,cant wait for the book.
Cheers Sharkey

PS. For those interested a good capture course & a good vet relationship is time & money well spent.

Wow! Still not answering the man's original question...instead we deem it more important to get cute with sarcasm.

[sharkey]

No, Mark.
I would always be reluctant to discuss a dose to someone I don't know,or over the interweb.I'm not a fully qualified vet.

I don't like sarcasim,but I'm struggling with the culture/language/interpretation,differences between our countries,sorry.
Calling someone a bastard down here means you like them.Don't quite know how that would go there.

However, I'm happy to talk about the pro's & con's of capturing & handling animals & share some of my own mistakes & experiences.

The doses need to be controlled & monitored by the prescribing vet.
I respect this & would not undermine thier authority or thier good faith every time they allow a deer farmer access to these drugs.

There is good reason to allow the tiletamine in telazol (zolitil,in other countries) to metabolise,before reversing the xylazine.
The diazepam in the mix & quiet deer have saved you some grief no doubt.
Not every capture is on quiet deer & reversing the Xylazine early can cause the "ketamine effect". Ask your vet about it.

Cheers Sharkey

[Don H]

Sorry dbocoke that only 2 of us attempted to answer your actual questions. If you are in fact using Xylazine/Telazol mix, let me reiterate what I've already said and give you some facts through experience. Mix 5cc of Xylazine and not 6cc like many do because it is the breaking line in effective potency. My deer that normally go down with 2cc of tranq mixed 5cc per bottle will all too often find me sneaking up behind them to push another 1/2cc in them when I use 6cc per bottle. When reversing with Tolazine you match the exact amount of Tolazine with what you gave to knock them down and give it intramuscular, aspirating your syringe to make sure you are not in a vein. Contrary to what you've been told above, DO NOT wait to give the reversal. In fact give it as quickly as possible. Reason: Your worst enemy when a deer is under the influence of Xylazine is asperated pneumonia(which results in death 10 days to 2 weeks later), caused by the deer's inability to swallow while under the influence of the Xylazine, and brought about when stomach contents intrude into their throat. They suck these stomach contents into their lungs instead of swallowing them back down due to their inability to do so. I dart, I saw, I move, and/or I treat, I reverse, and they're always up walking around easily within the time these guys are telling you to wait. Trust me on this. I have the experience of tranquilizing well over 150 deer in the last 3 years, all of which were reversed as soon as possible, and all without incident ( whatever that incident would be I have no idea) as well as the corroboration of a vet that has mentored me and is very involved in the deer industry and raises deer himself. Note: Book smart and field smart can be 2 different things!!

Mark, when you mix the 5cc of Xylazine with the Telazol, are you using 100mg or 300mg Xylazine? And how many cc of this do you use to tranquilize mature bucks?

[sharkey]

Don H
Thank you for highlighting the issues concerning the kitchen table prescribing of these drugs.

Cheers Sharkey

[Sandridge Whitetails]

No, Mark.
I would always be reluctant to discuss a dose to someone I don't know,or over the interweb.I'm not a fully qualified vet.

I don't like sarcasim,but I'm struggling with the culture/language/interpretation,differences between our countries,sorry.
Calling someone a bastard down here means you like them.Don't quite know how that would go there.

However, I'm happy to talk about the pro's & con's of capturing & handling animals & share some of my own mistakes & experiences.

The doses need to be controlled & monitored by the prescribing vet.
I respect this & would not undermine thier authority or thier good faith every time they allow a deer farmer access to these drugs.

There is good reason to allow the tiletamine in telazol (zolitil,in other countries) to metabolise,before reversing the xylazine.
The diazepam in the mix & quiet deer have saved you some grief no doubt.
Not every capture is on quiet deer & reversing the Xylazine early can cause the "ketamine effect". Ask your vet about it.

Cheers Sharkey
Sharkey - I understand your position of reluctancy and respect it. My position on feeling comfortable in providing advice on dosage spawns out of experience. It also spawns out of the realization that experienced deer farmers typically know more about what, how, and when to do things when it comes to treating deer medically than your average cow, pig, dog and cat vet does, which certainly constitutes the VAST majority of vets here in the states. At the risk of sounding arrogant, several of the local vets here in my area have learned MUCH more from me than I have ever have from them, and my information to them has come to me via the experiences of other deer farmers as well as my own experiences implimented through this same info.
Sharkey, I too am happy(glad you are too) to talk about the pros and cons concerning the care and treatment of animals, sharing my mistakes and experiences with others. That's what makes this forum so awesome. I certainly have a significant amount of deer standing alive in my pens today solely because of advice/info I have received here on this forum.
And we all don't have to agree on certain issues, in particular when ''this'' will work as good as ''that''.
I did ask my vet Sharkey...he said you're wrong. And again, this is a vet that is ''fully qualified'' and is extremely involved and experienced in the deer industry, as well as raises his own deer, and he said this about anyone who believes that it's wise to ''wait'' to reverse with Tolazine, and I quote ''They're wrong''.
One last thing Sharkey, and this is of utmost importance :) should you ever decide to visit us here in the States: Calling someone a 'bastard' will not be very warmly received up here either! lol Now you have yourself a great day and may God Bless you abundantly!!!

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Mark, when you mix the 5cc of Xylazine with the Telazol, are you using 100mg or 300mg Xylazine? And how many cc of this do you use to tranquilize mature bucks?

I have always used 100mg and have never used 300mg. I typically use 2cc for my 2 year olds. Lately I have begun to use 3cc on those that are 3 years old and older even though much of the time 2cc is enough. Wish they made a 2 1/2cc dart. Variables on dosage sometimes lend themselves to why you are knocking them down. And once in awhile you can run into a deer that is Xylazine resistant and requires more than the ''normal working dosage''.

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Mark, when you mix the 5cc of Xylazine with the Telazol, are you using 100mg or 300mg Xylazine? And how many cc of this do you use to tranquilize mature bucks?

Don H - I would like to add here that I know of no one that uses 300mg Xylazine though I assume their are those out there that do. I personally would not consider using it for the following reason: The size of the darts available to me that I currently use wouldn't allow me the flexability to measure my desired amount of 300mg Xylazine being administered due to it's potency. The darts I use come in 1/2cc, 1cc, 1 1/2cc, 2cc and then 3cc and up. If my darts were made in 1/4 cc increments, it might shed a different light for me on my desire of using 300mg Xylazine. Just one man's opinion.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Mark you are spot on the way you explained how you go about darting and reverseing.If they would have been sitting in the same crowd as me last year at nadefa they would have been told by one of the top deer vets in the country that he recomends to reverse as soon as possible..no waiting...If you dart the deer and it takes say 15 minutes for it to go out and then you cut horns or work on the deer there has been enough time in between all this to go ahead and wake them up.The only thing different in our usage is that i use a 6 to 1 ratio on the cocktail and mine are calm so its 1cc for does and 1 1/2 for bucks and its lights out!!! I double the rate for reverser.If i dart 1cc cocktail i reverse with 2cc's!!!!!

[Capchaman]

Mark how does the size of the "dart" influence you decision whether or not to use 300mg/ml Xylazine?? The whole idea behind using highly concentrated drugs is to allow you to use less drug in the dart and of course allowing one to use a smaller darts, the ideal dart size being a 1cc dart for anesthetization and please explain "a Xylazine resistant deer"

[Capchaman]

Don H
Thank you for highlighting the issues concerning the kitchen table prescribing of these drugs.

Cheers Sharkey

Sharkey keep up the good professional posts.....we do speak the same language!!

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Capchaman - Certainly with the use of fractions and sterile water one can 'moot' out the concern for dart size...I like simple and I like ''if it ain't broke, don't fix it''. A man asked my opinion, I gave it, and labeled it as such...my opinion!! You say ''the ideal dart size being the 1cc dart for anesthetization''. Ok fine. For 14 years now and after hundreds and hundreds of deer being darted, I have been using anywhere from 1/2cc to 3cc darts, (which according to you are less than ideal), and yet I have experienced ''ideal'' results in anethetization. If you are one of those that uses the 300mg Xylazine and 1cc darts, then use them. Nobody is trying to change your mind! Why don't you concentrate more on the original question of this thread(instead of otherwise) and answer it, giving the whys and the wherefores of your opinion and your success thereof. That way, maybe we could all learn something. And when the originator of this thread reads your opinion, he can then make a more informed/educated opinion and assessment on what he choses to do, it's just that simple.
I find your adaptation to the term ''kitchen table'' interesting. If in fact the majority of us here don't believe that this forum and it's participants in this ''kitchen table'' advice given out has any significance - then WHY are we here? - WHY are you here? I'm sure we ALL know of a local vet we could call - WHY aren't we just calling them? I'll tell you WHY - because the average local vet does NOT know what the experienced deer farmer does concerning meds for deer, and I've buried more than one deer from the advice, or lack of, from just such ''local vets''. To be more specific to the issue: The average local vet would have no more known the correct dosage of anethetization for dbocoke's deer than a man in the moon...period!!
Ya know, and I was warned about this, some people post on here not to be helpful but to simply pick a fight. It's no wonder people leave the forum or strictly do PM, which is exactly what I am going to do upon hitting the ''post quick reply'' button. So if you Capchaman, or anyone else have any questions or comments concerning this last post of mine or any others, you're gonna have to call me. My number is listed.
Capchaman - You asked ''please explain a Xylazine resistant deer''. Because the heart of your post/question is plain to see, I will answer you as follows: Crack open a Webster's or just keep darting...one or the other, or both, will sooner or later enlighten you!
However, if I have misread your heart, call me and I will be glad to explain.

[sharkey]

G'day Capchaman.
Thanks for the kind words.
Some folks dont take help well,or as a non American, It may be my delivery.
I do like many of the people on this forum,some real deer men & women.

Cheers Mate.
Sharkey

Ps. If Aus isn't in the final against Kiwi (NZ) in "The world cup",I'll be cheering for SA.
Please don't tell them though ,or they'll kick me out of the Pacific alliance.
Anyone but France then England.LOL.

[sharkey]

G'day Mark.
The kitchen table reference was mine,actually
I believe you truely believe you are helping,but unless you start using mg to the kg instead of a third of a bottle of this to 2cc of this (you get my drift) you are not.
Why do we have vets?
Why are these drugs controlled?
Please be responsable.
Chapchaman,is a professional,as are others on this forum.
I don't think he was aggressive at all.
We have both seen restrictions brought upon us in several countries because of the missuse of these drugs.You don't want that.
You have not answered his question on xylazine,why is that,it is not that cryptic.
Dart size is important for impact trauma & induction times,not just flight characteristics of the dart.
I hope your good luck continues.
Cheers Sharkey

[skip]

I dont have a dog in this fight,but I have to say there is nothing Mark said that was out of line.I agree it is good to have a rapport with your local vet.Not many are versed in Cervids so yes we are continually training them as well as them us.A capture corse would be great but not always possible.
I know several people that use 300 xylazine because of chemical resistant deer.
No two deer are the same some strains of deer are somewhat resistant ,so the stronger xylazine helps aid in them being restrained.
We are all ambassadors to the deer industry so we are on a daily basis teaching the public and sometimes our vets the how and whys of Deer Farming.
Sharkey you were kinda Badgering him with some of your posts. If every time some one posts gets grilled or ridiculed there will be no one to answer important questions.
To solve this all DBCOKE I am from Oklahoma as well as yourself call me and I will get solutions to your problems or questions.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Great answer skip.....this is getting to the point where nobody is going to get on here and help the folks that really need it because of a bunch of bullsh!t slams.If someone does not have a positive answer to someone in need they can just keep out of the question.....Do us all a favor!!!!

[sharkey]

G'day Skip
Maybe I am "badgering"(is that like a flamin dingo?lol).
Lets not forget we are talking about controlled drugs here.
A bit of professionalism & care is reasonable I would think.
I'm not trying to deter people from comming here for help,Just trying to lift the bar a bit,especially around the effects of & accuracy in using these drugs.
Is "badgering" being called book smart by someone who has only darted 150 domestic deer from a single species?
Or is it being "slammed"by trying to help by raising the understanding just a little?
I would have thought a little understanding into what these drugs are & how they work would be positive,as would a good relationship with a vet.
I will admit reading things like 2cc of this into a bottle of that,inflames me.
Its just not that hard to use mg to kg,remembering that the concentrations of these drugs vary & this forum is read in many countries.
Or is it only for those who use 100mg xylazine or for Nth American's only?
Or whitetail only?
Cheers Sharkey

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I am sure if someone had a question about mg to kg they would ask the question and hopefully if there is any with that knowledge still on this site would be quick to reply.We raise whitetails,we dart whitetails and we treat whitetails...Simple.We were taught with a certin method that works for us so why confuse things for many.Mark is right in his words that the vets in most areas are not deer savy and i have also lost animals after taking a vets advice.Thats one of the biggest things that concern me is that all the crap that has went on on this site have pushed some of the most knowlegable folks that used to be quick to help no longer give advice...Thats a shame for a new person standing in a pen somewhere with a little fawn at their feet and are at a loss of what to do and lose the fawn...

[dearjohn]

I dont have a dog in this fight,but I have to say there is nothing Mark said that was out of line.I agree it is good to have a rapport with your local vet.Not many are versed in Cervids so yes we are continually training them as well as them us.A capture corse would be great but not always possible.
I know several people that use 300 xylazine because of chemical resistant deer.
No two deer are the same some strains of deer are somewhat resistant ,so the stronger xylazine helps aid in them being restrained.
We are all ambassadors to the deer industry so we are on a daily basis teaching the public and sometimes our vets the how and whys of Deer Farming.
Sharkey you were kinda Badgering him with some of your posts. If every time some one posts gets grilled or ridiculed there will be no one to answer important questions.
To solve this all DBCOKE I am from Oklahoma as well as yourself call me and I will get solutions to your problems or questions.

But we all need to learn your solutions to their problems!

[skip]

OK I was only trying to help a fellow deer farmer some support ,I was not getting involved, but I guess it's too late.
Sharkey,you are right these are controlled drugs They cannot be bought on the street,so you have to have a relationship w/ a vet to acquire them.Everyone that does this has a vet. Certain vaccines are required to ship to a vet and cannot be shipped directly to you.
I do believe in time as our industry becomes more mainstream new veterinarians freshly out of school will be specialized in cervids or at least been exposed to them in some way during their tenure.Oklahoma State University is currently involved in such a venture right now to make this a reality. It is called the OSU Farmed Whitetail Deer Program look it up on You tube.
Sharkey back to the original pun badgering means to taunt,pester,or agitate.I am not sure what a flaming dingo is if it gets near the deer pens its going down.
OK dearjohn here is what I do not just a recommendation.For moving older fawns in fall 3/4 cc of straight xylazine.For the older does that I want totally sedated I use 2cc of telozol cocktail mixed w/ 6cc of xylazine for each bottle of Telozal.I know my deer there are a few that take 3cc but my boys and I know which ones they are and administer accordingly.
Now you can see why I defended Mark we are not too far off what we both do.
Now that is what works for me and what I was taught by an experienced deer farmer.
As our industry advances we all will be better versed in our techniques and methods.WE are all doing it right now and some of you don't even realize it.
Sharkey you are right about the argument of a vet.I hope I helped explain the reasons of our method and where if we stand together we will only advance our industry in the realm of AMERICAN agriculture.

[sharkey]

Thanks for your response Skip.

Yes the deer industry will change,hopefully for the better & may the changes be driven by the stakeholders not beaurocrats & anti's.

Sorry? I missed your point
"we will only advance our industry in the realm of AMERICAN agriculture".

My own position is, deer farmers,hunters,fishers,farmers,timber,etc are constantly under attack from various groups with not so good adgendas.
We should be standing together,understanding & helping our friends, irrespective of national boundaries,this can only be good,I would think.
I have worked deer in three different countries & have great mates farming deer in some of the most diverse parts of the world,its interesting how we share similar problems.It's interesting how the solutions are often similar,if we take time to look.

I do enjoy this forum,& the great people on here,I am not here to "badger",yes,I have agendas & bias (see above). I think most would be consistent with the majority here.

Cheers Sharkey

[dearjohn]

Thanks, I print and keep this good stuff in a folder. Hopefully someday I can use the good advise.

[Grant]

Ps. If Aus isn't in the final against Kiwi (NZ) in "The world cup",I'll be cheering for SA.
Please don't tell them though ,or they'll kick me out of the Pacific alliance.
Anyone but France then England.LOL.

Bloody hell. You go to the effort of discovering paradise, help populate it with the right sort of folk and what do you get in return, anybody but England. Great. Good win for you guys on saturday. Hope you find a tight 5 worth taking to the park before it kicks off.

I am thinking about using M99 or immobilon as its called here. However it has no withdrawal period and therfore cannot go into the food chain ever. Would be interested if other countries have the same view of it.

[sharkey]

G'day Grant.
Glad your not helping to populate OZ now,I could see us getting a few air busses full of your recent rioters.(hope thats all calmed down now).
I still have a British passport so not anti England, I just find I'm spending more time with Zimm's & Sefafricans.The're good farmers too.(better than their rugby,ROTFL).
We'll do alright in Kiwi,home town advantage.NZ is just an offshore state for us,& most of them live at Bondi now.
We have a Pacific Game Management meeting in Oct,we've all bought black shirts already.Not to support the silver ferns,but condolences on their pending early exit.

Grant.I was fortunate to have the Head deer manager for British Shooting Association (Allen M) spend five days with me last year.We had a discussion around chemical capture,& the issue you mention.
We don't have the same issues as the UK or EU down here as we have withholding times on animals.
If your just doing red deer Xylazine (& antagonist) will work alone.Fallow need something extra.Ketamine/xylazine (& antagonist)will work & may not have as many issues with withholding animals.
M99 (etorphine) & large animal immobilon are different.The large animal immobilon has 10mg/ml of acepromazine (ACP) in the mix.It may be the ACP not the opioid which knocks your deer back.
An often overlooked tranquilliser is azaperone ("stresnil",down here)it only has a six hour withholding period for us.Its also a good opioid synergist (it was the "az" in "fentaz"),so may help replace the ACP in the immobilon mix if this is the issue.
Good luck with it all.
Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

Morning mate,

Have you mentioned your view of NZ to any inhabitants as I am not sure it would be well received. LOL.
Yes the riots seemed to have stopped now. It started raining and the brits are too apathetic to riot in bad weather.
Are you saying that immobilon has a withrawal period in Aus. Are you farming Sambar or Reds.

Grant

[sharkey]

G'day Grant.
The Kiwis give as good as they get,we don't like getting beaten by each other,but if push comes to shove we know, we are always on the same side. ANZAC's
Is it the fear of rain, or the thought of a bath which stopped the riots? lol

I have never needed to consider a withholding period for immobilon.It has only really ever been popular within zoo's down here & the public opinion cycle would spin out at the thought of anyone eating exhibits.
Personally I would choose a different opioid mix & would also choose an S4 before an S8 for storage,transport & health & safety reasons (paper work,not risk).Ketamine/xylazine will do what you need with just a slightly longer recovery.For reds just xylazine.(I'm guessing you have reds & fallow,not asian's or tropical's).The withholding period is 30 days,for wilder reds add some azaperone,only six hours withholding.
Hopefully you have a good vet,not just for prescriptions & supervision,he/she may need to advocate for you too.
I sit on a couple of committees which have very experienced vet scientists whose interests include deer & work with a couple of uni's on captive & wild animal management,I'll ask around on any info or thoughts regarding withholding from immobilon.

I farm sambar,reds & a few other species & sub species.

Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

Morning

I have asked around and no one appears to use anything else for reds here. I dont have too many as its not a business for me, but I do have a stag with a nice set of slippers and I would rather clip his toe nails for him than the alternative.

Are you aware of any Sambar farmed over here.

[sharkey]

G'day Grant
Im sure xylazine will be avaliable.It was also known as Rompun & would be stlll popular with the horse vets.

I don't know of any surviving sambar in the UK,there was one or two attempts but they failed.Don't know why?They are just like a muntjac in habit,a 250kg muntjac!
How would a 250 kg big brown deer go? Hunt clubs would love them as they lead a chase like no other deer.
Its still legal down here to hunt them with sent trailing hounds.Sambar thrive on this as the kill is across all ages & sex,& it pushes deer into new areas.

You could try Javan rusa for something different & they go well running with reds (might need some shelter though).Woburn may still have some.

Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

I dont believe that Rompun is used on reds here. Not sure why. It is on fallow as I hear immobulin is not suitable for them.

Would quite like to see a 250kg muntie. I think they would have to change the firearms legislation again if they existed here.

The business here seems to be largely for meat so an animal with that weight may have a market.

Cant hunt with hounds here.

[sharkey]

G,day
Rompun (xylazine) is used to velvet all red deer down here which don't go into a hydraulic crush.
Why risk a years return from each animal, smashing the velvet in a drop floor.Also using xylazine is more humane.
Straight rompun is far better on reds than on fallow.
If you use someone with experience on fallow it would be good to get their opinion about the reds.
Is there a withholding/withdrawl period on the fallow after rompun is used?

Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

Interesting reading mate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/8732404/Rugby-World-Cup-2011-Anyone-but-Australia-winning-say-New-Zealand-fans.html

[sharkey]

I don't believe it. Not our cuzbro's. lol

Seriously, they would put France behind us too.Who owns that paper?
Remember the "Rainbow warrior".

Cant wait to hear Waltzing Matilda at the final.

Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

I don't believe it. Not our cuzbro's. lol

Seriously, they would put France behind us too.Who owns that paper?
Remember the "Rainbow warrior".

Cant wait to hear Waltzing Matilda at the final.

Cheers Sharkey


Would be good if a northern hemisphere team won and did away with supremacy of you guys. Obviously modesty precludes me from mentioning 2003 where a southern hemisphere team was only kept in the game by a bloke who could'nt understand scrumaging laws. I like the French, they hate the Brits but I dont hold that against them. Would like to live there in fact.

Would be good if some of the minnows did well. Be good for the sport for the US to do well. There are too few test playing nations and a country of that size doing well could be a real shot in the arm for the sport and be good for them to be involved in a world cup that other countries play in :D.

[sharkey]

Yes I agree.
Most rugby supporters down here would love to hear the Star Spangled Banner & Waltzing Matilda before the final.

It will be covered by lots of papers too, not just the "World".:D

Cheers Sharkey

[Grant]

I can imagine they would. However, lets hope they all remember the words to 'god save the queen' so they can all have a good sing song.

[Antlercam]

has anyone had trouble getting the reversal tolozine just lately? I tried to get some from our vet they said it had been recalled and no answer when they will get some back in.
When you use BAM what reversal do you use. What are the rates on different size animals? What is the technical name of BAM.

[Antlershed]

tolazine must have been off the shelves for a while, my vet is getting me some but its still 10 days from being available, I had a heck of a time getting vitamin B and C&D antitoxin this year too, they were pulled for a short period of time.

[Padencreek]

Was having the same problem. Just found it on this website but I didn't add it to my cart so not 100% if they have it in stock.
(www.atozvetsupply.com)

[Capchaman]

BAM is a combination of 3 drugs, (Butorphanol, Azaperone and Medetomidine) hence the name BAM. There are three reversals for BAM, Naltrexone is used to reverse the Butorphanol, Atipamezole is used to reverse the Medetomidine, there is no reversal required for the Azaperone, Tolazoline is also required.

The dose rates in Whitetailed Deer are:

Butorphanol: 0.41 - 0.62 mg/kg
Azaperone: 0.31 - 0.41 mg/kg
Medetomidine: 0.19 - 0.25mg/kg

or give large bucks 1.5 - 2cc small bucks and adult does 0.1cc - 1.5cc and fawns 0.3 - 0.5cc

reverse with:

Naltrexone: 50 -100mg or 0.5 - 1.0ml
Atipamezole: 3cc in fawns, does and small bucks and 5cc in large bucks
Tolazoline: at 200 -300mg or 1.0 - 1.5ml

These are the recommended dosage by the manufacturer of BAM, I personally have used less than these recommended dosage with great results.



has anyone had trouble getting the reversal tolozine just lately? I tried to get some from our vet they said it had been recalled and no answer when they will get some back in.
When you use BAM what reversal do you use. What are the rates on different size animals? What is the technical name of BAM.