Bucket raising fawns

[Randy@AppleCreek]

We have a bucket feeding project going on and would like to know if anyone out there has any experience with bucket raising fawns. - Randy

[ZZ Whitetails]

Randy, Dick Cain in Tx. bucket feeds and swears buy it. Don't have his number off hand but get a TDA membership book that Scott should have and his number will be listed. Tell him ZZ said to call and he will either hang up or talk your leg off! ZZ

[brianjames]

Are they less tame when you bucket feed your fawns? I want mine tame. But if they are still tame then It might be something to try...

[ZZ Whitetails]

I have found that they are not as tame as hand fed! When you see a picture of fawns feeding off a bucket they are stretced out as far as they can reach, not affraid of the bucket but of the person standing next to the bucket! I would think that it would be good for buck fawns that you have to pull as you don't need them as tame. But then what do I know! ZZ

[ANTLER VALLEY]

Some of us, including me, have no idea what you are talking about... please elaborate.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Antler, A 5 gallon bucket with 6-10 nipples coming out. ZZ

[Rick]

Hey ZZ according to Greg Stewart who I talked with last night, he said you did not know much.... just kidding he had nothing but good things to say about you...

[Bruce]

I used a bucket (see attached) a few years back , we would hang it on the fence and wipe and pet the fawns while they fed. We feed Fox Valley 2:1 so overeating was a problem on some because there is no way to control intake. Went back to hand feeding to better control intake.

http://http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=4244&cat=30&page=1 (http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=4244&cat=30&page=1)

Bruce

[IndependenceRanch]

Hey Apple Creek, you should see if you can get special pails made for this use. The pails could be in sections inside and then each fawn only drinks what it has in it's section.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Rick, Doc Greg is one of the best deer minds in the country as far as I'm concerned and if he said I didn't know much hell even I beleive him! We've done a few things together and have had nothing but good results over the years. One being the first embyro program in the country. Others will tell you they were first but we know better! He does all are A-I work and trust him completely. Pic his brain every chance you get and you'll be better off every time. ZZ

[ddwhitetails]

I like that idea Roger but....how do you keep that agressive fawn from finishing it's section and then bootiing the less agressive fawn off it's sectiona and finishing off it's share.....it would still be hard to control i think plus the fawns would not be as tame.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Caprine supply makes a bucket that the nipples are on top with fish tubing attatched and they actually learn to suck like drinking out of a straw so you can put individual bottles inside to give each preferred amount until you get them drinking all they want. Keeping them from eating the others is where you come in Dennis. I have 2 of these buckets but have never tried them. ZZ

[ddwhitetails]

I hear ya ZZ but if ya got be there I guess why not bottle feed....of course I guess feeding eight or ten at one time rather than two with a bottle in each hand does save time......:)

[ZZ Whitetails]

Another idea is the machine that you put your powder in and hook up a water line and they go to it when they are hungry anytime and eat what they want. My goat milk suppllier used one for years on his billy kids and it worked great! Clean once a day and hook back up. He loved it. ZZ

[H&M Whitetails]

ZZ Do you have any info on that machine , i think that would be good for the buck fawns to keep them on the wild side, had to pull a few due to the weather

[ZZ Whitetails]

H&M, I don't know all the specifics but I did think about buying it from him last year since he retired. I know it mixes as needed and how I don't know. Wooden these are used on calves also ever heard of such a thing? I'll try to get some info from Gene and get back. ZZ

[ZZ Whitetails]

Amen Robert!! ZZ

[ddwhitetails]

I think Robert is trying to start another Milk War:eek:.......but i'm going to bite my tongue and refrain from debating......I will say Robert I have always said you need to be smart when feeding the Red Cap yes they can and should eat more than if feeding a powder.....but you can't feed them to much to where "they blow up like a balloon" that just wouldn't be smart!!!:D

[ddwhitetails]

your right Robert......no more wars........you feed your way I will feed my way......I won't bash your way of feeding and i ask that you don't bash my way......none of us are out to harm our animals and the last thing I would do is let my fawn eat so much that it would blow up like a balloon...those were your words not mine........i wasn't biting my tongue trying to make you understand my way of feeding I was biting my tongue becuase you were bashing my way of feeding.....i'm done I am happy with my system my fawns are doing great and that is all that matters.....wish the best for yours too Robert!

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

No fight... but I am going to buy a camcorder and tape the feedings...My deer eat all they want.
They do not pop.
They are doing great.
The economy needs stimulated anyway... Walmart here I come...
When I said stimulate...I am just going to spend money!
Take Care
Billiejo

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

OK Randy@AppleCreek
I feel...In my opinion...That you could use a bucket to feed if you used red cap...
but do not feel it would be safe to do so with formula...I would ask the formula manufacturers, How they feel about it...
I have one deer out of 15 that I need to stop from making a pig of herself ...I make her stop for a few minutes, then will give her more if she wants...but the rest eat/drink all they want and are doing great.

[virgil]

I feel after first month bucket would work great cause deer are already friendly. After that as long as you are rite there by the bucket they should remain used to you. I have a bucket with the nipples and hoses but can't get some of them to use the different kind of niple other than that i think it would work great for peole usin red cap. Most will stop eating when full without blowing up but i have two that i have to limit a little bit. If i was dong more than 11 at one time i would try a little harder to get them to use the different niple but as for now i gave up on the bucket. PS Rob, got one fawn bon on 5-11 who is drinking 50-60 oz per feeding not bloatin at all poops pellets like BB's everytime. He is a monster and doing great. So don't knock it till you try it.

[Randy@AppleCreek]

WOW. Didn't know I was opening such a big can of worms. More like a barrel of pythons. No one can say Whitetail breeders aren't passionate. I suppose I should have jumped in earlier to guide the discussion around my question. For this I apololgize.

My original question of asking if anyone has any experience feeding fawns with buckets was answered quickly. I also found Dick Cain who does feed with buckets and loves it. Thanks ZZ for the reference. We do things almost the same as Dick. The goals are the same and the end result seems to be the same.

We weren't completely ignorant going into this project. I know some very successful bucket feeding operations in the sheep industry. Using their protocol as a model we started our own project with 6 head. 3 doe fawns and 3 buck fawns. The fawns are 3 weeks old today.

Now, I have learned that in the Whitetail industry, "CHANGE' is a 4 letter word. What we want to see is if there more than one way to skin a cat.

We use square buckets with 6 nipples mounted on 3 sides. The nipples are at the bottom of the bucket. I found that the nipples with tubes can be frustrating for a new fawn since the milk doesn't stay up in the tubes after feeding. It falls down to the level of the milk. The new fawn has to take several sucks of air to get milk. With the nipples on the bottom the milk is there upon demand. The 4th side faces the wall and is attached there via a bucket holder. Yup, that means the fawns get milk 24/7. I know this blows some of your minds, but hang with me here. I'll explain it all before this is over.

We are feeding ADM Kid milk replacer at less than $3.00/liquid gallon. (Again trying to skin that cat). One of the main reasons we picked ADM powder was the price, under $3.00 / liquid gallon. It also has everything we wanted in a fawn feed. So far it has worked very well. Next year we'll run another study comparing a different milk against what we now use. Trying to skin the cat.

Of course, when the fawn comes in we started it on a bottle with a pritchard teat. Then we switch it to the bucket with a pritchard teat on it. The transition is flawless. The pritchard teats on the bucket leak a little, so as soon as they are sucking well, we switch to a soft latex nipple. They're hooked by then.

The fawn pen is only about 6' X 8'. It could probably be even smaller. We bed with saw dust over a concrete floor. Keeping the ammonia smell down is a top priority. I would prefer doing this over our sandy soil with straw.

One of the questions we were asked is about the difference between wild fawns and tame lambs. It seems the babies don't really care what the nipple is hooked up to. The fawns emotional attachment is now to the bucket, not to the person holding the bottle. The fawns don't run to me as I enter the pen. Instead they run to the bucket and take a drink. We don't necessarily need deer to run up to us in the pens. Sure it makes us humans feel great to have the deer come up and go through your pockets looking for a treat, but our real goal is to produce deer that are easy to handle in the chute, the alley and during transportation. To keep the stress at a minimum. That doesn't mean the fawns never get handled. All of the fawns are handled from their nose to their toes each day as they're feeding. They are very calm.

One of the other questions we have is about scours. Lack of sanitary feed equipment is the main cause of scours in fawns. We handle this by cleaning the buckets every 3-4 days. Now some of you may have to do this every day in hotter climates, but we help the milking equipment stay bacteria free by freezing coffee cans of milk replacer and putting them in the bucket. I also add liquid milk replacer mixed with cool water to the bucket to give the fawns something to drink while the ice milk slowly melts. This helps us with several problems. It keeps bacteria down. It limits the amount of milk the fawn will drink at one time, (thus eliminating overeating). It forces the fawn to drink more often which mimics the interaction between the fawn and the doe. This actually causes the fawn to drink more milk overall per day. It also keeps scours to a minimum. I have not noticed a drop in consumption, in fact the opposite is happening.

Two factors limit the amount an animal will eat. One is called the "fill factor". They will eat until their stomach is full. Like me at Thanksgiving. One more bite and I swear I'll explode. Some of us also have stretched our stomachs more than others. The other factor is "Blood sugar level". Like me eating the corner piece of the wedding cake with ton of frosting on it. After about 3 pieces it's just too rich. I can't eat anymore. Sometimes these 2 factors get out of whack in animals. That's when we either vaccinate for over eating or regulate intake by limiting the amount of milk they get. Most of you do this by only feeding a certain amount. We're trying to do this with cold milk. So far it has worked well.

One other thing. Since the fawns are consuming more milk, their BM's are of sufficient size to drop off by it's self. We did stimulate the first week, but after that I saw the poop always on the ground. I got very little by stimulating at that time so I quite by week 2.

As far as efficiency goes, I spend an average of 15 minutes per day with these fawns. I check their milk first thing in the morning and add a can of frozen milk immediately. Then add enough cool liquid milk to last them through the day. I then add another can of frozen milk in the early afternoon and another before I leave at night. most of this time is waiting for the milk to thaw enough in the bucket so it'll fall out of the can. This takes all of 10 minutes throughout the day. I also clean up the wet spots in their pen daily.The other 5 minutes is spent handling and gaining their trust.

I don't figure it matters much what brand of milk you feed. That is not the point here. The project is to look at a way to more efficiently feed the fawns with the goals of calm deer, good health and saved labor being met.

From my perspective, this is a good way to feed fawns. Are we switching all of our fawn feeding to buckets at this time. Nope. We're going to look at this more later in the summer when we can have several buckets working at the same time.

So, should all of you switch from what you're doing to bucket feeding? Nope. Do what works for you. Do what makes you feel good about your results. Should you disregard what I've just explained to you as an alternative way to raise fawns? Nope. Just remember that there might be more than 1 way to skin that cat. - Thanks for your patience, Randy

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Thank-You for taking the risk and sharing your new found knowledge.

[CameronCrow]

Randy,

Thanks. I enjoy reading about new innovative ideas. This whole industry was built on innovative ideas. Without them the industry would go stagnant. This is just like me feeding my milk mixture compared to yours, figure out what works FOR YOU and share it with others so they can see if it works FOR THEM. Every ranch has a different group of deer, different pen design, different way they work their deer, and on & on. Thanks again.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

I agree whole heartedly guy's! wish more people would post thier thoughts or ideas about stuff thats the only way we learn new ideas and techniques to help ALL of us out on our farms. because what WORKS FOR ONE DON'T ALWAYS WORK FOR ALL!!!!!!!! just my two cents worth.

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

Sorry I found it a little late
www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3819&cat=14&page=1


Lac-Tek Kid Feeder #3819
92C Continuous access to milk allows animals to feed according to their natural habits.
Allows the goats to drink warmed milk by means of a nipple. Incidence of sickness is reduced.
Fully automatic. No mixing by hand is necessary. The machine works continually with minimal maintenance.
Feeds up to 60 kids; 25 lbs milk powder hopper; Up to 6 nipples for kids; 110 or 220 volts; needs connection only to running water and electricity; operation and maintenance require only 5 minutes a day; will not freeze up during winter; has it's own water heater; low cost; one year warranty.
Extra Shipping $45.00.
Details


More Info: More
Price: $895.00


Options

[ZZ Whitetails]

Thanks Billiejo thats what I was talking about in an earlier post and I beleive it was H&M that asked for more info. She said she found it a little late, not for next year! Thanks again, keep up the good work. You get an atta boy! ZZ

[H&M Whitetails]

thanks zz and billiejo