Baffled by Bloat

[LGode]

It is with a heavy heart that I post this thread in the hopes that you folks may have had a similar experience. Two weeks ago I let my fawns into a pen with four foot high rye grass. Two hours later I had a fawn down with massive bloat. He was symmetrically tight as a drum. After tubing, Bloat Release and needle decompression he died. At that point we moved the deer and cut all the rye grass down. This morning two deer were found down with bloat. The first was dead. She was so bloated that she had blown out her rectum and ruptured her abdominal wall with protruding intestines. The second fawn was again symmetrically bloated and tight. Same routine of tubing, Bloat Release and needle decompression produced no obvious results. We were able to get small pockets of gas out but nothing that made any great difference. He died within two hours. My pen has grass, hosta, ornamental grass, very short rye grass and normal lawn grass. All twenty fawns are still on bottles. They are also hitting on sweet feed and some browse consisting of maple leaves. I am at a loss as to what could cause two deer to go down at the same time. If anyone has any thoughts I would greatly appreciate it. I also have pictures that are graphic but if you think they would help determine the cause I would be glad to post them. Thank you!

[Robbie]

Liz - I feel your pain. I lost one to bloat last night, too.

He is 40 days old, 22 lbs., ate (9 oz. milk) and acted normal at @ 2:30 pm, ran and played with the other fawns when we turned the water sprinkler on at 3:30 (it is hot here), layed down and napped with the others at 4:30, at 6:15 when we were making bottles for the next feeding, he was layed out flat, bloated like crazy. At 6:20 I treated with baking soda/water drench, .25 cc banamine for the discomfort, 10 cc C/D antitoxin for enterotoxemia, and 5 grams Target probiotic paste. This gave him some mild relief, probably the banamine, but within 45 minutes to an hour, his respiration was back to elevated and he again looked like he was very painful. We needle decompressed, and as the gas was coming out, you could really smell it, he had a seziure and died.

Difference, my pens are dirt, and I ration what leaves they get to browse on. They eat MaxRax fawn pellets, goat milk, Target probiotics daily, and get small amount of freshly pruned oak, pecan or other tree branches occassionally as treats. I tell all of you this NOT to start a fire storm about any of these products, I believe in the quality of the products that I use and put none of the responsibility for this on any of them. I only mention it to let you know how controlled of an environment my fawns are in. My point is, I think there is another underlying factor that contributes to bloat, and that is what I am in search of.

Liz and I have two extreme opposite sets of conditions, in terms of what the fawns have access to, and yet we have the same result. There has to be another factor that contributes to bloat that we are missing. Anyone have a thought?

[IndependenceRanch]

Sorry to both of you for the losses.
I really don't know much at all about this boating issue. Currently we have 11 fawns on the bottle. Some of them are really big in the belly area. They all are active, and their poo is really good. One of them is really big bodied, and doesn't eat nearly what we think she should be eating, but this has been going on for a while already. Her poo is some of the best looking pellets you could ever want.
They eat Calf Manna pellets and have grasses and clover to eat. But they are big in the belly area. All this talk about bloat has me concerned.
I see you gave 10cc of the C/D antitoxin. That seems like a lot. Why 10cc? How was it given, in a shot or orally? I ask only trying to learn about this bloat stuff.
Ours have been this way for a while already. How fast does this bloat issue attack and kill?
I'm trying to figure out if we have an issue or not.

[Robbie]

The antitoxin bottle has dosage recommendations, and it says the regular dose for a lamb/kid is 5 cc, the treatment amount is double that. It is a shot, SC. My goat expert agreed with this, I called her before I did it, just to be sure.

In my case, this particular fawn had a tendency to bloat after bottles, and we had even put him on straight water for a day a few weeks ago until his system "cleared up" and then gradually cut him back over to milk. Several weeks went just fine, he was pooping "big deer" pellets regularly, and showed no other signs until the events I described above.

[IndependenceRanch]

Thanks Robbie

[PaintedMeadowsBJs]

I am so sorry for your losses.
I am wondering did your fawns (both of you) already have shots for c&d and the fusoguard?
My vet recommends 6cc of c&d at the first sign of bloat... it's so hard in any of these situations to say what's right or wrong when you get so many different things from the "professionals".....But it sucks so bad not knowing...

Should I have given more...should you have given less...Would it matter???
I hate not knowing when we have little one's counting on us.
The loss is so hard,but the worry of what to do the next time...is the worst.
I lost a great buck fawn last year.
And he was my favorite...I cross my fingers and hope we figured out what happened ...but....You never know

One other question was it frothy bloat or just air?
I know you said gas but just checking/wondering from both of you.
Not trying to fight just looking for answers for all of us ....and our little ones
If I loss another one EVER it will go to Penn State.

[LGode]

Just gas on both of mine. Home necropsy just showed green gass in the stomaches. Next one will definately go for a professional necropsy. What made it harder was one fawn had already survived a fox attack and the other was born when the doe was struck by a car and he was forcibly ejected from the womb. Took alot of work to get them to the outside pen and doing well. Sometimes Mother Nature is a bitch.

[CurtisLloyd]

I have become quite pragmatic on the survival of fawns...... some are born ,looking for a place to die.

[Buckskin]

Robbie, I don't know if this will help but if your grasping for straws I'll throw it out there. A week or so ago it got pretty warm here(Illinois) with a heat index of 105 so we decided to not warm the bottles so much. We had been feeding just tap water warm anyway so a nice cool drink of milk seemed like they might enjoy it. We were right, and the fawns were eagerly sucking it down. A 5 week old buck fawn we were feeding(he's quite the guzzler) sucked his down as usual but then I noticed he went off by himself with his head down and hair all bristled up. He stood there looking at the ground. We went over to him and his belly was swelled up hard as a rock. He did not want us to touch it. We give him some gas-x and some cornoil made him pee and poop. He eventually laid down. We set up with him for about an hour and he got up and came over and we were able to rub his belly. I'm happy to say he was fine in the morning and it's been a week and no more problems so far. None of the other fawns had a similar reaction and all I can figure is because he sucked his down so fast it must have cramped his stomach up or something. I should go back and check but it seemed to me that you mentioned one time about feeding right out of the fridge. If I'm mistaken please forgive me but perhaps your little guy might have had a similar reaction. I'm not saying it was your fault or anything like that I know you feed a ton of fawns and wouldn't be afraid to try any of your technics on my own fawns but since I did get this bloating like reaction I thought I would just pass on my thoughts. Rick

[Robbie]

Rick - good thoughts, and I had a similar experience earlier this summer. Last year, I did feed cold milk, with no problems at all. This year, for whatever reason, this group of fawns don't like it cold, and so they are all getting warm bottles.

[Robbie]

Here are pictures from the gross necropsy - look how angry the intestines are, very dark, and very full of gas. The huge "balloon" looking thing sticking up to the right side of the photo is the cecum - NEVER seen one that distended. The other shot is of the heart & lungs, they look fine. Matter of fact, all of the other organs look fine. Only the guts are a mess.

My vet went through this one with me, and she feels like it is probably clostridium, based on all of the physical and gross observations.

My whole pen got booster doses of C/D anti-toxin today, and they will all start the vaccine regimine at 6 weeks old.

[STDF]

How long should it take for bloat to go down / or go away?

[Predator3]

We had a similar experience. We had a fawn in perfect shape at noon. She took her bottle great. By the next feeding she was bloated. By the time we made it to the vet to get a tube and back home she was dead. The only thing we could come up with was the nipple we used at noon had a larger hole in it letting her drink it too fast.

[richie0033]

Sorry about your loss. You are good to talk with and good luck with the rest.

[Mitch P]

Robbie & Liz, here we go again. I typed this all this afternoon but It didn`t send for some reason. I`m just guessing here and kinda looking for the connection between bloat and Clostridial perfringens. I`ve lost 3 fawns that I know of to Clostridial perfringens and all 3 did bloat near death. All 3 were rapid deaths. Like from hours to over nite and at death they all bloated. I`ve never put these two together until Robbie sparked a thought with the 10cc`s of antitoxin. Not saying that all bloat cases are C&DT just wondering if this may be a heads up sign of Clostridial Perfringens. I didn`t see the necropcy pictures this afternoon but those intestines sure look nasty and if only I was looking I would suspect Perfringens. I asked at a seminar last year if Clostridial perfringens can be reversed, the answer was yes, IF detected soon enough. Treatment is heavy does`s of Penicillin. The big question we ask ourselves are we dealing with CD&T or something else? It`s too hard for me to say because my experience with CD&T deaths were so rapid I didn`t have time to respond with anything. The buck fawn I lost back in Jan. 08 Just showed a seperation from others and I thought possible pneumonia so I responded with Baytril. By morning he was bloated and dead. Necropcy showed death from Clostridial Prefringens. Sure would be nice to find a good answer to whether or not bloat can be a direct link to Perfringens? Just thinking out loud here and it may spark another thought among the more knowledgeable out here. Not a lot of answers here just a few more questions from a Pollock.

[LGode]

Intestines were full of gas but not dark or necrotic. Could this have been the time difference between the necropsies? This picture was taken within one hour of death.

[Mitch P]

Liz now those look fine to me. I think there is 2 different cases between yours and Robbie`s. The ones that I have watched done have been hours after death and the intestines were blackened in parts and some were all blackened. The ones I opened myself from injury deaths all looked like the one you have posted here. Maybe someone else may have a little more insite to the bloat you experienced on this one. Knowledge. Don`t we all wish we had more on these critters?

[Robbie]

So, back to the concept that 100 different things can cause bloat. So frustrating! I wish this fawn would have given a physical indication earlier, because I believe that you can treat Col. perf. if caught soon enough. Problem is, how do you catch it sooner, when they aren't showing one single symptom!!!!!????? We have to crack the code on this, someway, somehow!

[STDF]

How long should it take for bloat to go down / or go away?

[Robbie]

I don't think there is set answer for that. Depends on what caused it, what the other symptoms are, how you are treating it..... I have had it go down in a few hours, a few days, or not at all.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Robbie, Mitch mentioned heavy doses of penicillin and some one else mentioned penicillin, we talked about it on the phone maybe theres something to it. Who mentioned it before? You and Mitch can get a cookie! ZZ

[Mitch P]

Hey ZZ, it`s morning and I want my cookie!!! How about you Robbie?

[LGode]

I think I get a cookie too. This morning yet another fawn bloated to the size of a keg. We gave 5cc of Pen-G and 10cc of C&D Antitoxin (Mitch it wasn't A&D like I originally thought). The two were spaced a few hours apart. Within one hour of giving the antitoxin the bloat was totally gone. After consulting a few of the experts on the forum I believe it was the combination of the Pen-G and the Antitoxin that did the trick. Next time (hopefully there won't be a next time) I will administer them both together. Hope this can help someone else...

[Mitch P]

Thanks Liz, maybe we`er finding that link that we have been looking for. What just happened to you tells us a lot between the link to bloat and Clostridial perfringens. All of you that have lost a fawn to bloat make sure to have a Necropcy done to see the real cause. Liz just may have saved us all from looseing another fawn to what we all may have just wrote off as died from bloat. Keep us updated on the fawn Liz.

[Robbie]

Awwww, man! I sneak off to one little 4th of July party, and I miss out on a cookie! Funny, we all get caught up in the fancy new drugs on the market, and good ole' tried and true penicillin just keeps producing results. I'll keep my bottle close, just in case there is a next time!

[Texas John]

I am just starting, but have two fawns on bottles. We warm theirs and have had no problems with either.
Am having problems getting them to take pellets. If it's not in a bottle they just don't care for it. They will take the pellets if I hand feed them to them, but just ignore the pellets out in a plate. They are eating some grass, but the bottle is supreme.

[Gaylen C]

I am just starting, but have two fawns on bottles. We warm theirs and have had no problems with either.
Am having problems getting them to take pellets. If it's not in a bottle they just don't care for it. They will take the pellets if I hand feed them to them, but just ignore the pellets out in a plate. They are eating some grass, but the bottle is supreme.

Cut back their milk intake from the bottle. They are being filled with milk so there is no reason to look for other food sources right now. By feeding them less milk they will go and browse more and search for food and will start eating more feed.

To get them started eating feed out of a pan I will put some feed in the pan when it is time for their bottles. Before they get their bottle I get a hand full of feed out of the pan and hold it just above the pan. As soon as I get a couple eating out of my hand I drop the rest of the feed out of my hand and back into the pan. Stand there with them a little bit let them nose around in the feed pan. Then you can give them their bottles. Do this for a couple of days and thats it.:)

[Scott Heinrich]

Hey Liz.........You Go Gurl!!

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Liz, was the Pen-G and the C&D antitoxin both given to the fawn sub-q.

[LGode]

Yes both sub-q and the fawn is still doing great...

[sugarmountain]

Can anyone give me some advice on Therabloat? Can I put this in a milk bottle or only in water? Does this work on frothy bloat as well as simple gas? And what is the doseage?

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Liz, the Covexin 8 has the C&D antitoxins in it. Can it be used with the Pen or should only the C&D be administered with the Pen? Thanks Jeff

[LGode]

Jeff, I gave the Covexin-8 as a vaccine and used the C&D as a treatment with the Pen when the deer bloated.

[Robbie]

Covexin 8 is not an anti-toxin, it is the vaccine. You should treat a sick animal with the anti-toxin, and when the deer is healthy again, give the vaccine and booster as recommended by the manufacturer. C/D anti-toxin is available w/o an Rx from Jeffers and other online sources.

[Saline Creek Whitetails]

Thanks again Liz, quick response.

[ddwhitetails]

Just lost one today to bloat.......happened within three hours.......by the time I noticed him he was laying flat out and breathing short breaths.........rushed him to my vets and he died in their parking lot........of course it was my sons favorite fawn (seems to always work that way) anyhow, I have all the drugs needed I just didn't catch it in time......unfortunately can't be with the little guys 24/7 and just being gone 5 hours at the wrong time turned into a bad deal for this guy.........My concern is I do have two other fawns (one was a premie) anyhow, they look really bloated after eating their bottle........this has been going on for weeks now but since I lost one to bloat now I am concerned....the one I lost to bloat never looked this way but these two seem to always look very round bellied and it is really bad after they eat....do you think they should be dropped way back ontheir milk intake? Should i treat them with the c&d and Pen G? What are your thoughts?

[Mitch P]

First question dennis, did you open the fawn up and look at the intestines? This thread has some good info on the possiblities of bloat related to Clostrial perfringens. It`s important to find the cause. Too many times we just write off a death to bloat but is that the real cause? Not saying you could have done anything to catch this problem but it would have givin you some info to what we have been looking for. The common denominator between bloat and clostrial perfringens. One thing we do know is that death with perfringens is rapid. If a necropcy was done it would have givin you more insite to know what to do with the other fawns if there was a connection there to bloat and perfringens. Sorry about the little guy. I know it`s tough losing one.

[LGode]

I am so sorry for your loss and I know our children's pain makes it that much harder. None of my fawns showed any signs of bloating before the incident that killed them and like yours they were dead within hours. If it were me, to be on the safe side, I would re-vaccinate with Covexin-8. I have also had great luck with simethicone (infant gas drops) for the ones that always seem to be round and gassy after their bottle. I put it in each bottle with probiotics and it seems to do the trick. Best of luck.

[ddwhitetails]

Mitch,
Unfortunately I did not do the necropsy as I had to leave right away after this incident to coach my sons Allstar team.........i should have tried to put him in the fridge in the garage till i got home but he was a pretty big fawn.....I'm sorry folks i want to figure this bloat thing out too as it really is an aweful thing to witness not to mention that it seems to usually lead to death..........

[wvdeerman]

Robert,
the dosages depend upon if you are treating a sick fawn or just vaccinating against illness.

Simple vaccinations would be 2cc of the C&D antitoxin and no pen G

Treatment for a sick animal would be 5CC of C&D antitoxin and 2cc of Pen G.

Some people have recommended Covexin 8 also as a long term vaccination that can be given the same time as the C&D Antitoxin. Personally I prefer using Alpha 7. It doesn't require boosters as often as the covexin 8.

Good Luck !!

[Scott Heinrich]

OK experts, here's one I need help on. I have a 6week old doe fawn. This fawn developed a lump on its left side (see pic) over a month ago. We have not determined the cause of the lump. Attempts to aspirate it revealed nothing and it is firm to the touch and somewhat elongated now. The lump had not affected the fawns overall health in any way that we could determine. I mention the lump only because it is of unknown origin and may be meaningful when you hear the current issue. The fawn has what appears to be bloat. 3 days ago she blew up and quit eating. We have treated with Penn g, CD antitoxin repeatedly and have also administered Tetradure, Probias, Pepto Bismol and Vitimine B, with no success. She does take a bottle occfasionally, but only about 2-4 oz per day. When she is at rest, she lays on her side like a dog. Several times over the last few days we thought she had croaked, but were suprised to see her get up and scamper off when we approached her. We are giving mineral oil this evening as a last resort to reduce her girth. Any ideas?

[wvdeerman]

Scott, to me it looks like a hernia in the muscles of the abdomen. Perhaps wrapping with an ace bandage and giving banamine would relax that muscle and allow it time to heal. The other option is a possible x-ray, which may lead to an operation for repair.

[Mitch P]

I can`t respond Scott because you asked for experts. Now if ya want a Polock guess I would wonder if it could be a hernia or tumor since you`ve tried to aspirate it with no results. How about an obstruction or twisted bowel? You have pretty much covered the perfringen thing. I`m just wondering if her laying on her side is to relieve the discomfort she has. I`m trying to throw things out there that may stark a thought in others that may have encountered something similar. The loss of appetite concerns me. I don`t really know Scott for sure other than guessing. There`s one sure way to get these answers but I don`t think we want the answers that way. Keeps us posted Scott, I am curious to know. If it has you stumped then we are all in trouble on this one. Good luck.

[Mitch P]

Sorry Jack we were typing together.

[LGode]

how much of the penn-g and the c & d antitoxin do you give to the fawn

Robert - When my fawn bloated I gave 10cc of antitoxin and 5cc of Pen G. The antitoxin dose needs to be doubled for treatment and the Pen G should be a high dose. This is what saved my fawn. Liz

[Scott Heinrich]

The hernia was ruled out by the vet. He stated that when he palpated the lump it felt like liquid to him and he did not feel any bowel or tear in the muscle. The fawn got 10cc of cd antitoxin TWICE and 5cc of penn g. We are getting a sonogram machine tomorrow to look at the lump and Mitch, we may go in and extract whatever it is if the sono looks clear enough to determine it is separate from the wall of the body cavity. I usually have good results fighting bloat, but this one has me baffled. We may also try Liz's approach for the fawn she had with the pinched gut and just enema the daylights out of the little bugger. Don't worry, I will have a rain suit on when the enemas begin.

[Scott Heinrich]

UPDATE..........Sonogram revealed the lump to be a blood clot. The lump originated virtually overnight and we had at the time suspected it was due to an injury, but we began second guessing ourselves with the onset of bloat. By the way, it appears that the CD antitoxin we administered is finally doing some good as the fawn's belly was 40% smaller today and she is beginning to eat more now. Thanks to all of you for your input and help.