Genetic improvement ???

[RLAwhitetails]

I would like the opinion's of some of the experienced breeder's about genetic improvement in a deer herd. I have a few doe's that I believe are good doe's a couple of them may be real good doe's and a few more that I will replace with there first offspring . But my question is how do I know that the buck that I am doing the a.i. with is an improvement that will pass to his offspring. What do you look for in a buck? I know there is a lot more to a buck than his size, there are a lot of big well breed deer out there that cant seem to produce. Is it a waste of semen to throw a top end type buck in a so so type doe? Can you see much improvement in a single generation of a.i. or is the money spent on semen better off put in to replacement doe's. I know today it's either get good deer or get out. And at this point I have to much in to get out. Do most of you like to take a chance on a young buck or stick to an older more proven animal. Interested in hearing how other's are working at improving there animal's. At this point I am more interested in building better doe's. One draw back to the high dollar semen is that I am only able to split a straw one time.

[virgil]

By using semen and keeping your doe fawns then puting semen into them you should be able to make what ever you want. Some bucks may not pass their genes to their male offspring but the doe they produce may pass on their traits. In my opinion I think ai is the way to improve your genes. Buying deer cost more and it is harder to recoop your money you spent. It may work for some but far more people loose goin this route. Although if you can buy good deer cheap enough why not just be careful how much you spend. Some lines seem to sell better when certain people own them but for others they just can't seem to get crap out of them.

[La. Bone Collector]

RLA, Ill try my opinion. First of all we are living in a tough economy with an even tougher end market. You will have to make your own decisions regarding the current quality of your animals. When I say quality, it encompasses different angles such as health(resistant to disease /EHD etc.), passdown,pedigree, and the like. Do your homework on all the bucks you choose to breed with. I breed for specific traits. I study patterns in particular sires and use these in my doe that is lacking in that department. There are good and bad to using yearlings. First they are unpredictable. If you decide to use one, study his history on paper. I used two this year,we shall see. Something to remember about deer as I heard it: "All I know about breeding deer is that I don't know nothing about breeding deer!"-Its sometimes true- Jason

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I think it all boils down to what direction you want to go.If your pockets are deep enough to run with the big players you will have to use the hottest stuff on the market.Then there are some of them that are not producing. Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers. Most of your good does will make them with decent semen but most of your good does will not make breeders with any kind of semen.Yearling's are a shot in the dark. There are a bunch of high pedigreed yearlings on paper this year that are dink's and then there are some low pedigreed yearlings that are huge but will be worth crap because of no pedigree. To those that breed for paper.Pick yur poision and your direction then run with it!!!

[Josh]

Four Seasons, What is the definition of a Big Player?

[IndependenceRanch]

I think it all boils down to what direction you want to go.If your pockets are deep enough to run with the big players you will have to use the hottest stuff on the market.Then there are some of them that are not producing. Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers. Most of your good does will make them with decent semen but most of your good does will not make breeders with any kind of semen.Yearling's are a shot in the dark. There are a bunch of high pedigreed yearlings on paper this year that are dink's and then there are some low pedigreed yearlings that are huge but will be worth crap because of no pedigree. To those that breed for paper.Pick yur poision and your direction then run with it!!!

Josh let it go. Some people are so filled with so much darkness they can't see straight. Anyone reading his post can see it is filled with negatives. Heck he called anyone who tries to produce deer that look good on paper as not being "bright" so trying to reason with people with no reason is useless.
Everyone can see it is no accident when a farm pays attention to detail while choosing breeding combinations that it works both in production and in the return when offering animals for sale.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Josh i consider a big player as someone that is big enough or lucky enough to be able to afford to use the top bucks or semen every year. Its simple enough some have had enough success to be able to do that and some are small with lesser animals that are not able to use some of the bigger stuff. Its plain to see that in todays deer you are not getting into auctions unless you use the very top stuff. Heck i know of some very,very,very good stuff that didnt make the cut at the chupps sale coming up because there is such great stuff being used. Some breed for auctions,some breed for shooters and some breed by looking at past pedigree's.

Roger i really dont give a rats ass of what you think i say. If you were bright enough to read what the sentence says you would have read(Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers) Meaning that in todays world the guy that raises consistant great looking stockers that the ranches are looking for are sold out of animals. Mabey if you were still doing that you would know what i was talking about.Never once did i say a guy was not bright by breeding by paper.To each there own as far as their choices of how they breed their deer. But seeing how you wanted to bring it up.How have your deer sold at auction as of late???

[RLAwhitetails]

Guy's just asking how some of you that have had good luck with a.i. to improve your animal's went about doing this. Just asking how do I, we that are or will use a.i. can know that we are going the right way. I may be wrong but I think that the one plus to lower deer prices is that it has opened thing's up for the small guy like my self to be able to buy and use a quality of genetic's today that could not have been done a few year's ago. My main question is how many generation's of a.i. do most of you think it take's to realy see a major improvment. I dont think that you have to spend a large amount of cash to buy great genetic's today. I am not in the breeder market or never will be, I just want to use and raise good quality animal's that will make a profit when sold. Just have to have animal's that are good enough to pay the feed bill's.

As far as breeding for the way the animal look's on paper, even I look at the way the fawn will look on paper even though I am not looking to raise or sell top end breeder's. I do want doe fawn's that are good enough to sell,cant eat or feed all of them. From what I have seen from a lot of the farm's I have been to there is a need out there for good doe's, not top quality breeder's but good doe's. I was shocked at the number of buck's I have seen that I would kill as cull's in the wild for size / age, no way can they pay the feed bill in the pen. Have seen the farm's on the top end as well, awesome to look at some of those buck pen's out there.

Again not looking to start any trouble, just good advice from someone that know's how thing's work.

[IndependenceRanch]

Josh i consider a big player as someone that is big enough or lucky enough to be able to afford to use the top bucks or semen every year. Its simple enough some have had enough success to be able to do that and some are small with lesser animals that are not able to use some of the bigger stuff. Its plain to see that in todays deer you are not getting into auctions unless you use the very top stuff. Heck i know of some very,very,very good stuff that didnt make the cut at the chupps sale coming up because there is such great stuff being used. Some breed for auctions,some breed for shooters and some breed by looking at past pedigree's.

Roger i really dont give a rats ass of what you think i say. If you were bright enough to read what the sentence says you would have read(Some breed for paper and the rest of the bright one's breed for consistant stockers) Meaning that in todays world the guy that raises consistant great looking stockers that the ranches are looking for are sold out of animals. Mabey if you were still doing that you would know what i was talking about.Never once did i say a guy was not bright by breeding by paper.To each there own as far as their choices of how they breed their deer. But seeing how you wanted to bring it up.How have your deer sold at auction as of late???

Well fourseasons my personal finances are not really any of your business. But since you are asking, the ballpark figure for deer farm sales in 2011 has been right around $350,000 to $400,000. Thanks for asking:p
How have sales been for you?

[IndependenceRanch]

Guy's just asking how some of you that have had good luck with a.i. to improve your animal's went about doing this. Just asking how do I, we that are or will use a.i. can know that we are going the right way. I may be wrong but I think that the one plus to lower deer prices is that it has opened thing's up for the small guy like my self to be able to buy and use a quality of genetic's today that could not have been done a few year's ago. My main question is how many generation's of a.i. do most of you think it take's to realy see a major improvment. I dont think that you have to spend a large amount of cash to buy great genetic's today. I am not in the breeder market or never will be, I just want to use and raise good quality animal's that will make a profit when sold. Just have to have animal's that are good enough to pay the feed bill's.

Rodney,
You should easily see a marked improvement on the bucks being grown on your farm in the first 2 or 3 crops of bucks being grown out.
One thing I recommend keeping in mind is to breed to produce the next great doe and not to produce the next big buck. The does are the very core of anyone's breeding program. So breed with bucks that can add to the production level of your doe herd. Certain crosses have been shown to create these next great does and certain crosses have not shown this ability. As I mentioned to you already don't spend your money trying to find some cross that others have failed to find. Let someone else spend their money experimenting inside their own programs. You are better off using what has been proven to work for others. That is the wise way of investing your money into building a great production herd.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

RLA Thats what i was trying to imply with my posts but others think they know better of what i am saying than myself.Some should worry more about themselves. I am and alot i know are trying to do the same thing. I think it would take a few years to prove how your ai work is doing as far as passdown. I believe the small guy's such as myself with just a handfull of animal's can pay the bills by buying a few does from a few proven lines and then breed them to the bucks off your choosing that match up the best with your does.There is such a great amount of real good semen out there that can be bought cheap.Most will not sell stockers untill 3yrs old and with the great does that can be had,with the real good semen available it's a win,win for the small farmer or a guy that is happy with the does he has and his intrest is not in auctions but is making stockers.From the phone calls i have been recieving from folks looking for stockers and from some of the guys that fill orders from some of the ranches,Things are looking good this year and some orders can't be filled with the deer that have the look that ranches are looking for!!

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

You must be in some of the auctions that i have not been attending. From the books and sales i have been watching the figures look a little different.Are you sure you are not looking at all the real deer farmers checkbook when you say this.You know the coat tails of the one's you ride and try to say you are as succesful as them? You are right it is none of my concern such as what i have to say on these fourms are really not any of your business. If you want to read crap into what i am saying you better get a little better at it as you are doing a pi$$ poor job!

[Bruce]

My 2 cents on this subject is you can't pollish a turd. Be aggressive culling your does instead of trying to " breed them up" with expensive semen. Regardless of pedigree breed with does that have good conformation and are daughters of proven dams.

[Circle J Ranch]

My 2 cents on this subject is you can't pollish a turd. Be aggressive culling your does instead of trying to " breed them up" with expensive semen. Regardless of pedigree breed with does that have good conformation and are daughters of proven dams.

You know Bruce This is like the comment that got us into the industry. In the beginning we where just hunters raising some deer. As we learned more about the industry i ran in to the Ranch Manager of Glenn Dice Farms at one of our local ice cream shops ( C R Bucks ) after about 10 minutes of talking he looked at me and said " It cost just as much to feed a bad deer as it does a good one" I only had to think about that comment for 2 weeks before i had our first 200" bred doe Purchased. Sometimes its tough advice that can get you to the next level.

Don't pay to much attention the Big Guy, Little guy Crap. We are a small farm by size but BIG a heart! We set goals and meet them. As a small farm we got into 2 Auctions this year. We sold our first deer at auction. We sold our first deer out of state. and we sold all but one animal we wanted to move this year. So no matter your size or your breeding budget. Set goals and work towards them. IF its 200" @2 breed producing bucks to proven doe. A solid doe herd, Large frames, go after the animals that will get you there in the time frame that fits your goals.

For me personally if it takes me 4 years or 14 to get there that is fine. I got time. Good luck and dont loose sight of how much fun deer farming can be.

[lilcheeps]

Matt
Good comment and you know his bucks are not bad since we were going to AI with AW Wrangler this year but were not able to get the semen in time. So we know Rodney has some great backgrounds in his deer like GB PA Geronimo,RDM Goliath womb sister I see it your on your way Rodney but it all comes down to what you want to grow.
Like me I do NOT like the big non typical' s I am working for large 300 + typical
So for me it comes down to what I want to have. I do not worry if it is a big name or not and for one other point this forums has had some unknown names show up this yr that are very impressive

[RLAwhitetails]

I have a plan that I am sticking with as to type's of buck's that I am working with and what line's they are from. I did use some real good buck's for this year's a.i. and plan to keep doing that each year. This was just my 2nd year doing my own a.i. and thing's went well this year. Each time I do it I learn way's to make it better and what thing's I can use and do to make the a.i. go as easy as possiable the next time.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Thats what us small farms need to do. Buy some great does and then breed them ourselves with some real good but not real expensive semen!!Don't get sucked into the hype of having to breed with the higher dollar stuff just to make stockers. The small guy can make great money to pay bills and expand their herd if they just keep the overhead low!!

[ddwhitetails]

I try to sit back and bite my tongue but sometimes I just can't ......this is one of those just can't moments........I do not know Mike (from four seasons). I know he will speak his mind on here when he knows he is right....he is not afraid that he might look bad for speaking his mind on something no matter who he is speaking with........this is the way it used to be on the forums......however the personal attacks were never like they are today.......you spoke your piece, disagreed and moved on. I start reading this thread and everyone is giving their own opinions (right or wrong).......no one is personally attacking anyone until Roger decides to post.......yes Roger, you threw the first shot and personally attacked Mike for his opinions. No where in his post did he attack you or direct anything towards you personally......he was giving his opinion! What is sad Roger, is you had poor DC removed from this site for doing the very same thing to you years ago as you did to Mike here.....you may be a little more politically correct in the way you do it but that just wasn't DC's way! Anyhow, I am sick of all the butt kissing that goes on in the forums anymore........everyone is afraid to say how they really feel for fear they may look bad! There is nothing wrong with disagreeing on these forms that is what it's all about....give your opinion and someone else gives theirs.....once it goes personal it goes to far. I am not perfect by any means and have been guilty too.......I have done my best to practice what I am preaching right now.......but enough is enough! We are deer farmers folks....no room for EGOS here.........let someone give their opinion .......you give yours and leave the personal crap out.........the poor guy who started this thread now wishes he probably didn't and that is just ashame!

[virgil]

I wasn.t gonna say anything for fear that the six three bold guy might beat me up. At least thats what he thinks according to his private message he sent me the other day but very well said Dennis. Sure wish I knew how old DC was doin. Does anyone know how he is.

[Scott Heinrich]

4 seasons, you are attending the wrong auctions. There are many sales that sell deer from ANY farm. These sales are directed to the shooter market rather than the breeder market which I believe is extremely overpriced. Roger, sorry you are having an off year in sales...ha-ha

[IndependenceRanch]

I never had dc or anyone removed from these forums. Russell owns the site and he decides what happens on his site. As far as who said what or first, ask me if I care. People can read and they know the tone and the position all the regular posters on here take. They know what a comment about the "bright ones" means also. And Virgil, for God's sake learn how to spell. I am 6'3" and bald. Not bold. It is great how people take things out of context..... You all should work for CNN
On a side note congrats on buying that buck. He is a nice looking two year old. I wouldn't mind using him in my program but I just don't like the owners and I can't support their dirty tactics.

[IndependenceRanch]

Matt
Good comment and you know his bucks are not bad since we were going to AI with AW Wrangler this year but were not able to get the semen in time. So we know Rodney has some great backgrounds in his deer like GB PA Geronimo,RDM Goliath womb sister I see it your on your way Rodney but it all comes down to what you want to grow.
Like me I do NOT like the big non typical' s I am working for large 300 + typical
So for me it comes down to what I want to have. I do not worry if it is a big name or not and for one other point this forums has had some unknown names show up this yr that are very impressive

I especially like the GB Magic daughter that Rodney has.

[HAB Whitetails]

Happy Thanksgiving
I'm thankful for the whitetails deer, great people I know because of Deerfarming, and this site.
I agree with Dennis, I wish someone could post they'er opinion without getting bashed. That's why I do not post much.
I personaly reduced my numbers. With the bigger bucks I had this fall being under half price, it became a rough fall paying bills.
Oopps, probaly said too much negitive, I'll get a bashing, lol

Todd Hosch
Hosch-A-Bye Whitetails

[HAB Whitetails]

oops, sory 4 not speling very good in my last poste. lol

[virgil]

Thanks for liking are deer Roger now that everyone knows you would have used him we will probly sell out. Or wait maybe no one will use him cause the great oh mighty deer god has spoken. I am so sory Roger please forgive me. By the way I only speak what is on my mind I do not dislike you i just don't like the way you come across as if you or your ideas are better than others. A good man takes critism in looks at himself and then uses it to better himself. You do make a few good points once in a while but you still have much to learn as do I. From here on out lets try to not personaly attack people or their ideas.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Thats the problem!!! There are a few on here that really do care. Roger if you think you are reading the right thing's in my post you are worse off than i thought you were. When someone asks a question and i reply i try to give any side i can.Its not real hard to figure out. Just like i said there are 3 ways to do it. Auctions,pedigrees,shooters. Well the fact is if you dont use the highest dollar animals and semen= No auction If you breed for paper alot of times that means crap to the next guy in line and you know that for a fact!!! So yes any bright farmer that wants to pay his bills and not go broke doing it will go to what makes this whole deer world turn and that is hunt's. The small guy(Not big guy's like yourself that makes a half a mill) had better get a few good producing does and take advantage of all the great semen and great prices on that semen.You get on here and bad mouth people about their spelling and crap like that is a joke.

[ddwhitetails]

Roger, it's a good thing a lot of people don't do business as you do or you probably would not have made that half million you made this year as I am certain there are a lot that don't like your "dirty tactics" and have still purchased from you........Russell does own the site and yes it is his decision on who goes and who stays......but i am certain you had some persuading in what happened with DC. geez and now it sounds like you are threatening to beat people up on private messages........DC didn't say anything like that and got kicked off......Anyhow thanks for the compliment on Extra Gold.....I not worried about his sales as he will sell himself........I'm just not sure that I would sell you a straw because of your "dirty Tactics" you seem to play by. Ok I knew I would get swept into this when I commented earlier and it is what it is........I have had differences in the past with a few others on here and have made it right by contacting them ........you Roger are the only one that I have not been able to make amends with and I have tried.....this very well tells me your true character ..........I have also heard some of the other things you posted to people in private that would shock a lot of the people on here that you have miss led by YOUR dirty tactics!

[ddwhitetails]

Rodney
I personally am sorry for your thread being completely thrown off track........I hope we can get back to the original question you asked and hope you get the advice you were looking for.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Dennis,Rodney sent me a pm and we had a nice conversation on how a little guy can survive. Half a mill...Thats funny right there,I dont care who you are!!!

[RLAwhitetails]

.Guy's didnt want to cause any trouble. I have my idea's of how to breed my deer but at this point it's just a theory. My first deer that I made the decision's on are just 2011 fawn's. I was just asking how some of you that have done it for year's, what you have learned. My only goal is to produce the best doe's that I can, I am not all about inch's of antler. More about doe's that produce great looking antler and big frame. I also do not beleive that a small farm like myself has to buy 5-10K straw's and 20k doe's to do good. Actualy I think for me it's quite the oppiset. If I spent that kind of cash (if I had it to spend) it would almost guarantee me to be in the red forever as I will not ever be selling top end breeder's. For Me at this point I am willing to buy what I think is top quality semen some of it I think can be bought for as little as 100.00 up to 2k for something I think I just must have to get the doe's that I want. Again I may be wrong but there are only a few line's I want to use at this time and every straw I use or buy will have these buck's in there somewhere and also look for top doe's in the pedigre (the exception is the clean typical's and I go more for look of the buck there) they are Maxbo, Rolex, PA Geronimo and anything Flee's. Any way time to go eat, but all I was asking is how do you go about improving you female offspring. Buck's I am not worried about I know they just come from good doe's.There are a few that I have talked to and I do trust that they are telling me right direction to go.

[Circle J Ranch]

When purchacing semen from lines that tickle my fancy. I look to there sons to do the job. I wanted Maxbo Ranger and couldn't afford $18000 so we went with Midnight Ranger (possibly the most productive Ranger son to date) Maxbo $12000 we went with Maxbo Velocity. He had a great framey look that I like. Rolled Gold I saw at the time for $6000 so we went with HeadGear. We placed HeadGear in our typical lines to ad mass and some points.

There are alot of great deals out there but you can still get some of the Top Breeder's lines at a fraction of there cost by buying semen from some of there sons. There is a back edge to this and im sure not all will agree with me on the above. I know that this comes with its draw backs along the lines of some of these sires are not known producers and it is a gamble. But if you do you do your research and follow the doe on the bottom side ( Anchors ) You could end up with some great doe and some big bucks.

Good Luck