Is the Daughter better that the Dam ?

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

Since I first got into the deer bussiness. I have heard that you should sell the doe and keep the daughter because she is bred better and in turn will produce even better!

Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this and do you follow the same logic ?

[buckeyewta]

You should always be breeding to bucks that upgrade your herd. In that case the daughters should outdo their mothers. Just my opinion.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I am not so sure on that one because some of these new top of the line bucks are not producing on the doe side of the breedings. So if you have a great doe bred to a buck that is not getting the job done on the doe side...You selling the dam would be a bad move!! Just this dumb farmers way of thinkin it could go!!!

[RLAwhitetails]

That's what I try to do, upgrade my female's each breeding. But hate to get rid of all of the older one's untill I know the younger are better. But that would take a lot of time and would have to many animal's before I knew for sure,so as the younger get old enough to breed the older will move out. The exception would be an old doe that is just an awesome producer, I would keep her untill she would no longer produce.

As far as the new top end buck's not producing good female's I am not worried about that. Genetic's are genetic's, just use good proven line's. The young female's should be improved over there mother's. I pick the semen I use to produce the doe I want any way, not the buck. I dont pick a straw thinking what kind of buck will this cross make, I am thinking how good of a doe will this cross make.

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

I dont think that is the case at all.Just ask some of these guys that bought some of these line bred top names for 30 grand plus and are now selling them off for 3 grand. I would like a top buck fawn for everyone of the guys that told me that they wish they never would have got caught up in this top name crap and jumped on the band wagon.They say they would give anything to have their old lines back that were great producers. That advice has came from some great farms and farmers.Time will tell i guess. The great newz is that there are alot of great lines to choose from.

[Rick]

I have always been a beliver that if a doe is bred properly her offspring will be better than she was. I think if you practice this your farm will continue to improve in its performance even though this line of thinking may not always bet 100% true, if it is true more than 50% of the time your breeding program will improve.

Having said all that can Blue 37 produce an offspring better than herself???

As for line breeding, this has been practiced in almost all animal breeds for many, many years, and has proven very successful, I believe in this type of breeding practice with an occassional out cross being used to enhance vigor as a dog breeder once put it many years ago...think i got that correct

[Sandridge Whitetails]

That is a great question Wayne, and to know ''for sure and for certain'' one would have to do what RLA spoke of, and THAT would take an immense amount of time/feed/and care of animals. And it would take more time/feed/and animals if the doe/does you were trying to prove threw you nothing but doe fawns a couple years in a row.
I always hoped and figured the daughter was going to be better, but w/o proving it one way or the other, and now that I'm sold out of all my does, I never will know.
It did always stick in my mind though and made me wonder, as I'm sure it does some of you - Is the 'magic' passed on that the ''proven doe'' has? If it is, is it passed on to the measure she has it - is it always, sometimes, hardly ever, once in awhile, most of the time? - and here we are at the $64,000 question.
All this being said, I don't know how keeping the daughters wouldn't be the way to go in the long run, in the big picture. It seems like you would/should win most of the time doing that, but like I said, I don't know.

[Split-Hoof]

I dont think that is the case at all.Just ask some of these guys that bought some of these line bred top names for 30 grand plus and are now selling them off for 3 grand. I would like a top buck fawn for everyone of the guys that told me that they wish they never would have got caught up in this top name crap and jumped on the band wagon.They say they would give anything to have their old lines back that were great producers. That advice has came from some great farms and farmers.Time will tell i guess. The great newz is that there are alot of great lines to choose from.

Mike,

You actually know someone who has bought a doe for 30 grand plus and turned around and sold her for 3 grand? that don't sound right to me.

[WillPenn Whitetails]

As for line breeding, this has been practiced in almost all animal breeds for many, many years, and has proven very successful, I believe in this type of breeding practice with an occassional out cross being used to enhance vigor as a dog breeder once put it many years ago...think i got that correct

Absolutely Rick!
The only way to ENSURE consistent production time after time is through well thought out line-breeding. That doesn't mean that it will work 100% of the time, but it absolutely leads to more consistent production in offspring.

[IndependenceRanch]

Absolutely Rick!
The only way to ENSURE consistent production time after time is through well thought out line-breeding. That doesn't mean that it will work 100% of the time, but it absolutely leads to more consistent production in offspring.

Exactly!!!

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Chad that is right from the horses mouth..And this horse has over 20 breeder bucks 250in and up to 400 plus of some of the best breeders out there.He has over 100 breeding does every year bred to the top bucks..every year and he has one of the biggest hunting ranches in the country. Probably the most honest man i have ever spoken to in this deer business.You pm me and i will be glad to tell you who he is and give you his number.Some of these lines bred over and over are not all they are cracked up to be...So im told!!! Cant wait till im in it long enough to find out first hand!! Just for an fyi i hear of one selling at those prices and beyond at the chupps sale last week!!! I guess some are makin it work and some not so much!!!! Wish i knew which one's!!!

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Since I first got into the deer bussiness. I have heard that you should sell the doe and keep the daughter because she is bred better and in turn will produce even better!

Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this and do you follow the same logic ?

I think some of us are missing the heart of Wayne's question. Of course breeding your best to your best will improve your consistancy of good. What Wayne's question is, unless I'm misinterpreting it, is can we ''consistantly'' GET RID of the ''proven'' doe, the doe with the 'magic', and just keep her daughters, and be on top for doing so, or should one keep both.
Through the inconsistencies(big or small) in the yearly results of buck antler quality of breeding the same buck to the same doe, the inconsistencies in the qualitiy of the antlers in ''in the womb brothers'', and the fact that a doe may or may not have a buck fawn for a couple years straight, proving this theory of ditching the ''proven mother'' and keeping only her daughters would likely take decades of breeding to reach any given measure of accuracy in a percentage of what would be best to do - get rid of the proven doe each time and just keep her daughters, or not!

[virgil]

If you breed a proven doe to something better her fawns could be better. How ever this is not always the case. With that being said why get rid of your proven doe at all you already know what she can do.

[rsander32]

Well in my opinion i would say getting rid of the proven does has got to be working because 10 years ago there was 200-300 inch deer and now you see 300-500 inch deer and i bet that they dont have the same does they had 10 years ago.

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

I think some of us are missing the heart of Wayne's question. Of course breeding your best to your best will improve your consistancy of good. What Wayne's question is, unless I'm misinterpreting it, is can we ''consistantly'' GET RID of the ''proven'' doe, the doe with the 'magic', and just keep her daughters, and be on top for doing so, or should one keep both.
Through the inconsistencies(big or small) in the yearly results of buck antler quality of breeding the same buck to the same doe, the inconsistencies in the qualitiy of the antlers in ''in the womb brothers'', and the fact that a doe may or may not have a buck fawn for a couple years straight, proving this theory of ditching the ''proven mother'' and keeping only her daughters would likely take decades of breeding to reach any given measure of accuracy in a percentage of what would be best to do - get rid of the proven doe each time and just keep her daughters, or not!

Mark, You are exactly right.........Most are missing the point here! I can see by some of the responses that many don't follow the auctions because if they did it for no other reason than a form of research on specific lines and thier production or lack of it. As Mike pointed out thier are many deer sold each year that premium prices are paid then to be re-sold at auction at rock bottom prices I know of atleast one in the last auction that was bought for close to $70,000 and sold in the last auction for $2,000..............So do you not think she will produce! Sure she will and I bet her offspring will too.....But maybe not! Have you ever thought about how long it might take to actually PROVE that a doe will or will not produce? I currently have a Bucky/Flees Annie doe on my farm that came from the Flees farm and she is 12 years old this year...............Here is the problem with her .....she was 10 years old BEFORE she ever had a buck fawn! and she was also 10 BEFORE she had a set of TWINS!!!!!!! The Flees's kept her mother around for 17 years so I know she will produce or should right ?:) Most does are sold after they give a person a son and a daughter. So to keep your herd young most move the old out and keep the new! Right ? So if I have a doe that has her first son and daughter in 2010 an I sell her to deepen my pedigrees and strenghthen my herd and I breed the doe fawn in 2011 @ 1 and she fawns in 2012 and the original son from the 2010 breeding is now a a coming 2 year old and he turns out to be the next 600" buck! I have long since sold her and my only daughter died.....Then what am I not spinning my wheels chasing everyone elses "hype" OR am I still building my "strong" herd with deep pedigrees ?
Lets hear everyones feelings thier is no right or wrong answer I'm looking for just input...........Thanks for the responses!;)

[Sandridge Whitetails]

Well in my opinion i would say getting rid of the proven does has got to be working because 10 years ago there was 200-300 inch deer and now you see 300-500 inch deer and i bet that they dont have the same does they had 10 years ago.

True rsander32 - That's what's been done with the non-typical deer in the last 10 years, but what have we done with the typical in the last 10 years? We've done very little to go much past what has been grown in the wild as ''mongrels'' as far as the typical buck goes. Guess I've been unconsciously looking through the lenses of a 'typical' deer farmer when I've spoken here, cause that's what I raised.
It's obvious here that it's easier to breed and create increase in the 'abnormal' as opposed to the 'normal'. So, when speaking about the 'how to breed' non-typicals(abnormals) as opposed to typicals(normals), it could be, at least to a certain measure, like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, I used the words 'abnormal' and 'normal' on purpose, not to start a war, but because that's what they are, so please don't be offended and please don't lash out at me. I'll give you a defense now - The percentage of typicals in the wild drastically outweighs the non-typicals that are in the wild. In fact, there is not much of a comparison at ALL to the difference in the numbers between the two!
Anyone that has these extremely huge non-typicals and are making money on them...good for you and God bless ya...and I mean that! I just happen to be one of those that loves his typicals. :)
I wanna see a 300 inch ''clean'' typical 12 pt buck with round mass with a 32 inch spread and 36 inch beams, and then I want someone to give me the 'proven doe' he came out of after she has her 1st doe fawn! Yeah...that's what I want. LOL!

[Four Seasons Whitetails]

Rsander as you see with waynes post there are many,many many people that in fact do have the same does that they had ten years ago and if some of the new guys were to pay just a bit more attention to some of the sales and some of the talk from the farmers that have 1. Been around for ten years or better 2.Will give you the time of day.3.Will tell you the truth of the breedings that they have done. You will find very good advice like tim gave on another post,Breed your great current bucks with your old known producing does or Breed some of the great new does to some of the old known bucks. Some lines bred over and over again is not the only answer and some line breedings are not working at all.

[RLAwhitetails]

What was ask is do you think your female's are better than the doe they are out of. And to be honest there is no way you can tell right away but if we are breeding the right way they should be, or at least for me. I dont have the best doe's, I have some good doe's so it's easy for me to improve them. I am not for selling off every doe just as soon as I get a daughter that I tkink is better. Think is a big word there, because that's all it is, think is better. What I think is my best doe is not me best doe on paper if you look at pedigree. But you cant overlook what she has produced, I cant say her daughter's will be as good, better or what, who know's.

I agree with Mark, I would like to see big typical's. Or at least a big typical frame under all of the inch's. Every buck I use to do my ai have one thing in common, a big typical frame. Some are clean typical's, some are not but they still have that nice frame that you can see.

I also agree with Mike, some of the old line's may be the way to go over some of the new so called high power sire's, at least for me and the type of deer that I want. If you look at a lot of the big inch buck's they do not have a good frame in there any place that I can see. And there is nothing wrong with that if all you are after is big trashy inch's of antler. To each his own there.

So to be honest all you can do is breed your deer the best that you can for the type of animal you are looking to produce. You do need to have some early maturing inch's to pay the bill's. Back to the doe's, fawn's and what one is better. I think it's just a gamble, would be hard to let go of a doe that you know is good and what she will do. If she pay's her own way here,I will keep her untill she will no longer produce. Even if her daughter's are as good or better. I can use good female's. I think every farm has that doe / doe's that they like and want to keep them as well as some of her daughter's. And every farm has those doe's that are ok but when you get daughter's from her / them you will part with the mother's. Just cant keep em all.

Line breeding, I think it can go both way's good and bad. But no one can deney the fact that it has worked well in the past as well as it still will today. I do use it in my doe's or at least some of the doe's. Also plan to use some of the old time sire's with that awesome frame and then line breed that old line that has been proven in the past. I dont have to use the next big thing out there, I am quite happy with several of the old line's

But in the long run on average, if we do our home work and use proven sire's we should be improving the doe's we have on the farm. And the daughter's should be as good or better in most case's. With the exception of a super doe you may have that for some reason just produces, she may be the kind of doe that you just cant replace.

[Jeff23]

The real problem with the heart of the question: it's too late until we find out. How much space do you have? How many does can you keep in your herd? A 5 doe herd can take up quite a bit of room if you're providing enough space, and turn into a 20 deer herd real quick (after 3 years you could have 13 does and 7 bucks, for example). So......if you have a 5 doe herd, you have to sell a couple of does a year on average. (Either that or you have a bunch of death loss.) It's simply a numbers game. You can't KNOW which ones you SHOULD have sold/kept until it's too late in many cases.
If you are in a situation where you've had a doe long enough to know she's "proven", by all means keep her for a while. If you have the same space limitation most of us do, you look at the pedigree, go with your gut, and hope like heck you made the right decision! As a rule, we replace the old with the new, except one 8 year old doe that's done pretty well for us.

[Headley]

What do you calling old line's?.. and what or the names of some of the old line's?

Thanks Joe

[chris patton]

Wayne that is a very good question? I have a set of quad 2wide yearling does out of a great doe out of a old line {Marlin}. I have kept them all just to see if they will produce like thier mother. I know of a lot of farmers that would have sold some of the does because they have four. But there are cases where all four daughters produce better than the mother and then the rest of the siblings wind up on somebody elses farm and then they want 3 times what you sold them for to buy them back.. I hope I made the right decision for keeping all four of them. I used a lot of old line in my AI breeding this year.

[Headley]

Chris what or some of the old line's you used besides Old Marlin ? Is Avalanche,Redoy Bill,Matrix,Patrick,GB PA Geronimo,Redoy Mustang and Marty Graw, some of the old lines to? I have AI with some of these lines and I hope me yearling does or Better then the old ones.

[chris patton]

I used Marlin, Doc, Reno, Pa Geronimoe, 2wide, Abilene. I used some of the Texas line for EHD and heat resistance for La. I don't think anybody has every gone wrong with the Redoy Bill, PA Geronimo, or the Patrick line. They have always been a great producer in my opinion, I just dont have any semen out of Redoy Bill. I did use XWL TOMBSTONE for 20 live breeding this year because he is the best yearling I have ever had to date. I hope he produces, cause I bred all 4 of them quad 2wide girls to him. Sounds like you are on the right track with your AI program to me. I wish you the best of luck! I dont think you will be dissapointed.

[Tim Condict]

What I always do is sell the doe so I can have monster bucks out of her. Works every time. I would get rid of super doe and blue 37 as soon as I got a daughter. I would give them to me if I was Billy. If you want good production use some Mr. Awesome. Thats old and it works. If you want a deer that scores 500" buck use some of the stuff out there that can do that 1 out of every thousand. Want to make money in the deer business use those old no names and grow a bunch of wide 3 yr olds that score 210 to 260 with huge typical frames. Thats what my hunters want anyway.

[sharkey]

Is the daughter better than the dam?
Is the son better than the sire?

It depends on your objectives.
Are you crossing types?
Are you banking on Hybrid vigour?
How many generations before they breed true?

It was explained to me like this when I was a child,"One times a one gives you a one,one times a half ,will give you a half.If either parent is not a complete "one" the offspring will only be a fraction."

Cheers Sharkey