calcium carbonate

[Scrapelineranch]

W/o mentioning any names (both great people)...where I buy a lot of my feed I have been asked why I don't top dress my feed with calcium carbonate. One is a salesman and the other a very sucessfull breeder/preserve owner. Any reasons I shouldn't in any of your opinions?

[richie0033]

I think it will hurt your reputation in the long run. But do what you want and good luck

[John Swank]

W/o mentioning any names (both great people)...where I buy a lot of my feed I have been asked why I don't top dress my feed with calcium carbonate. One is a salesman and the other a very sucessfull breeder/preserve owner. Any reasons I shouldn't in any of your opinions?

Scrape,
I think topdressing dicalcium phosphate, or more preferably a balanced chelated mineral blend, would be a better choice as it would be a balanced source of minerals. Then again, you also run the risk of possible toxic overloads, repressed immune systems, as well as many other things if over-feeding minerals.

Micro and Macro mineral levels is a delicate balancing act in formulating a complete feed ration. Adding too much of one mineral inhibits absorption and utilization of others.

Just my opinion,


John



.

[Reed68]

Is that the name of this "enhancer" everybody is using?
Kinda sounds like HGH in baseball.

[WillPenn Whitetails]

Is that the name of this "enhancer" everybody is using?
Kinda sounds like HGH in baseball.

It's just calcium... nothing more.

[John Swank]

It's just calcium... nothing more.

Exactly.....

[Reed68]

Then why would it hurt your reputation? And what would feeding calcium do? I must be completly stupid to this one, so I will drop it.

[wvdeerman]

I agree with Reed on this one. How would this hurt anyones reputation? Aren't we in the business to grow antlers on our bucks? Aside from giving our deer anything that is illegal to obtain, I would think we would be in our best interest to give these bucks whatever it takes for them to grow the maximum antler growth each year. I also agree that it can be different minerals or additives for each individual deer.

I also agree that we should not put any of these animals health in jeopardy.

[richie0033]

I just meant that the enhancer that some use is supposed to shorten the deeds life span. For example a 3 year old would be considered lucky to have. Not trying to start anything just my 2 cents

[IndependenceRanch]

I will stick with the girl I took to the dance.

Corn
Oats
Beet pulp
Roasted soybeans
Sunflower seeds
A 38% dairy cow protein pellet.
Yeast
Limestone
Some 1 to 1 dairy cow mineral.
Some vitamins.
Some flavoring.
Molasses to hold it all together.

Simple, easy and nothing to hide. Our bucks don't need an ( * ) next to their name:)
Buy with confidence that what you get from us is real, and not real over hyped.

[ZZ Whitetails]

I have to agree with John on this one! I know that some fawns, and we have 1 or 2 every year, get to much calcium they can't absorb phosphorous and you get phos. depletion and their teeth fall out and their gums get infected. Gone untreated death. Too much of a good thing isn't always good! I've seen people talk about it on here before and said this same thing but was shot down. We treat with phosphorous pills from the health food store crushed and added to bottle. Don't know what others do, think they probably use the miracle drug draxxin!! Roger heard if you put calcium on your cereal it will grow hair. ZZ

[wvdeerman]

Roger, It sounds like your feed and mine are very similar. I agrees with you also ZZ, we don't put anything out of the ordinary in our feeds. My deer may not be the biggest ones out there, but they darn sure are healthy. I don't push the limits on minerals or calcium on our bucks. We like our bucks to be around for a while.

[IndependenceRanch]

ZZ, I heard you comb calcium through your beard:eek::eek::eek:
I am comfortable with my lack of hair. Fact is I wish what does grow would stop coming back every time I shave it off:mad:

wvdeerman, I would assume many feed what you and I feed. It is just a plain old simple mix. Nothing special or secretive about it. Interesting how silent some become when this topic comes up though isn't it???:rolleyes:

[wvdeerman]

I do have one question. A lot of guys put sunflower seeds in their feed mixes. I always have those held out of my feed. It seems like the blue jays and the squirrels get them all anyways. I always hold out the sunflower seeds and replace with extra roasted soy beans. The soybeans are cheaper anyways. But my question is, could I be cheating my deer out of anything by not puting the sunflowers in the feed?

Roger, in your feed mix you list limestone. Is that just plain lime or something else? and how much?

I have learned a lot from you guys. I really appreciate your help. Earlier in this thread, I agreed with the clacium and growing as much antler as possible. I was meaning within reason and health of the animal. I do not agreed with an over abundance of chemicals that shortens the deer's life. I also still agree that a 200" typical is still the threshold that is a standard for our industry. Not many guys producing those on a regular basis.

[IndependenceRanch]

My understanding on sunflower seeds has always been it gives the deer a nice looking coat. I am sure it does more than that though. Probably fiber also.

The limestone I mentioned is called "Free Flo Limestone" on the feed mills sheet. In a 1,000lb batch there is 4 lbs. My understanding is that it is a cheap form of calcium to go along with the 1 to 1 mineral. Apparently many of the diary feeds use it as a cheap form of calcium also. I don't think in that form it is as easily absorbed. Maybe John knows more about what is absorbed best.

My mix was put together by Gene Flees for me about 4 years ago. Gene seems to know a thing or two about deer;) And I can honestly say that after just a few months of switching to the mix we could see a difference in the bodies of our deer.

[ddwhitetails]

I agree roger......nothing like growing the deer the way they were intended to be grown........chemical free.....i know what a lot of these guys are using to grow their abnormally huge deer ....I should let the cat out of the bag....but then that would mean a lot of deer would suffer in the long run.......Grow them with good genetics.....and good feed....forget the enhancer if it is going to limit the length of their life.......i am kind of in a wait and see what happens to some of these deer mode right now........I can't think the enhancer is good for them........steriods sure aren't good for humans!! Some of these bucks are to the point of not even looking natural...(probably cause they are not natural) I'm not jealous of anyone and I'm happy for many of these guys that have these awesome animals I just hope they put their animals health before their bank account...meaning the helath of their herd should be ther most important and the top priority of everyones farm. The good Lord put these great animals on this earth for us to take care of (not take advantage of) and that should be our main goal. You take care of your animals right....they will take care of you!!

[John Swank]

My understanding on sunflower seeds has always been it gives the deer a nice looking coat. I am sure it does more than that though. Probably fiber also.

That's pretty much right on the money. Black Oil Sunflower Seeds offer high levels of Acid Detergent Fiber as well as Neutral Detergent Fiber. They are also high in bypass protein.



The limestone I mentioned is called "Free Flo Limestone" on the feed mills sheet. In a 1,000lb batch there is 4 lbs. My understanding is that it is a cheap form of calcium to go along with the 1 to 1 mineral. Apparently many of the diary feeds use it as a cheap form of calcium also. I don't think in that form it is as easily absorbed. Maybe John knows more about what is absorbed best.

Basically, limestone is the feed mills version of calcium carbonate. Ask specifically for calcium carbonate or a higher level of calcium and more than likely you will have feed grade limestone added to your feed.

As Roger said, it isn't as easily absorbed as other forms of chelated calcium supplements such as calcium aspartate, calcium lactate, calcium citrate, calcium gluconate, calcium orotate, calcium ascorbate and calcium malate, but is still a reasonable source of calcium for livestock.

Hope this helps answer your questions....

John


.

[cctanner]

That's pretty much right on the money. Black Oil Sunflower Seeds offer high levels of Acid Detergent Fiber as well as Neutral Detergent Fiber. They are also high in bypass protein.





Basically, limestone is the feed mills version of calcium carbonate. Ask specifically for calcium carbonate or a higher level of calcium and more than likely you will have feed grade limestone added to your feed.

As Roger said, it isn't as easily absorbed as other forms of chelated calcium supplements such as calcium aspartate, calcium lactate, calcium citrate, calcium gluconate, calcium orotate, calcium ascorbate and calcium malate, but is still a reasonable source of calcium for livestock.

Hope this helps answer your questions....

John


.

Hello John Can you pm me with an email address or a phone number to contact you? I tried to PM you on this site but for some reason, it won't let me PM anyone..?? Thanks

Chad

[IndependenceRanch]

John, could I then, or should I then use a form of calcium that is more readily absorbed than the Free Flo Limestone and then to maintain a balanced ratio cut back on the total amount used?
I just want to be sure not to jackup my ratios from where they are now. My deer are healthy and I prefer to keep them that way.
Also is it possible that using this "new form" of calcium is just a better way of getting absorbed calcium into the body, and allowing the grower to cut back on the total intake? Provided of course they are keeping the phos and such balanced then.

[IndependenceRanch]

I'm just asking if there is a good side to the new stuff provided that a balance is kept in line.

[H&S Whitetails]

We are feeding a very similar mix as well. I think we have been using it for about 3 years and I know it has made a big difference in body size and the horns are doing better also. Our three year olds are 75-100lbs heavier with this mix over our old mix. I also think it is funny how everyone shuts up when you start talking about feed mixes. Heck someone helped me out with a better mix why would I keep it a secret if someone asked.

[Gaylen C]

I just meant that the enhancer that some use is supposed to shorten the deeds life span. For example a 3 year old would be considered lucky to have. Not trying to start anything just my 2 cents

I think what you are referring to is milk calcium. Heard that it could possibly shorten the life span also. It is only supposed to work on yearlings and 2 year olds, nothing older than that. I have already seen one farm advertise that they do not use it.

[John Swank]

I'm just asking if there is a good side to the new stuff provided that a balance is kept in line.

Roger,
Chelated minerals are nothing new and as a matter of fact I bet the 38% dairy pellet you are feeding more than likely already has some chelated trace minerals in it - most high end dairy pellets do, including calf manna.

I will try to give a very loose explanation of chelates. All chelates really are, are basically minerals attached to some sort of acid or protein that is absorbed through the lining of the intestines much easier. The acids or proteins attached (chelated) with the minerals are seen as a readily available energy source, so to speak, thus allowing a faster absorption and utilization of the mineral.


Do a Google search for "chelated livestock minerals". There is a ton of information on the benefits of feeding livestock chelated minerals...


Good luck,
John



.

[stevel]

Roger, I'm like you, give them the best nutrition possible but hold back from the enhancements that cause an unnatural reaction in their bodies. You need to remember, there is a price to pay for pushing unnatural growth in any way. Many in this business don't care and are pushing as hard as they can to get inches early. It will all come out on down the line with shorter lifespans and bucks that flaten out their growth once they get to be 3 or 4 years old. There are no secrets in this business and people I talk to are starting to avoid doing business with the people who go to extremes that are harmful to their deer. Remember, a deer is not supposed to reach his potential until he is 4 to 7 years old. How many bucks are we seeing that are topping out by the time they are 3? I know one thing, I sleep very well at night knowing that I am doing the best for my deer that I can.

[dtrain007]

Where do you think these one hit wonders come from - monster young animals that never make it to maturity....hmmmm...
I'm like Roger, KISS is my policy (keep it simple stupid). I'm too dumb to cheat and lie, I have the memory of a 2 year old.
Production is the most important thing to remember when buying semen or breeding stock out of a certain sire

[Whitetail Sanctuary]

I agree with you guy's. my feed mix is about the same as roger's.I have asked many people about thier feed and if they use any additives. you would have thought i asked em what thier sister looked like in her birthday best.:eek:I have asked why alot of deer don't reach old age they seem to die early no real answer just seems to be hush hush. If i have to cheat to get ahead i'll just stay in the back and learn to like the view!!!!!!!

[John Swank]

Roger, I'm like you, give them the best nutrition possible but hold back from the enhancements that cause an unnatural reaction in their bodies. You need to remember, there is a price to pay for pushing unnatural growth in any way. Many in this business don't care and are pushing as hard as they can to get inches early. It will all come out on down the line with shorter lifespans and bucks that flaten out their growth once they get to be 3 or 4 years old. There are no secrets in this business and people I talk to are starting to avoid doing business with the people who go to extremes that are harmful to their deer. Remember, a deer is not supposed to reach his potential until he is 4 to 7 years old. How many bucks are we seeing that are topping out by the time they are 3? I know one thing, I sleep very well at night knowing that I am doing the best for my deer that I can.


Very well said Steve.... I agree! It's hard enough to discern genetic potential based on genetics let alone, now a days, having to take into consideration if the explosive growth is from possible drug enhancements.

I can assure everyone that chelated minerals are not in any way shape or form considered unnatural body altering enhancers. Inorganic (metallic) minerals will be chelated during digestion by the animal anyway. All organic pre-chelated minerals do is offer faster utilization and absorption of up to 45% of the mineral, unlike the 5% absorption of its inorganic counterpart.... Instead of dumping larger unused portions of inorganic minerals out the poop-chute of the animal, chelated minerals offer better utilization with less waste..... :D

I would feel pretty confident in betting that most everyone feeding a commercial pellet as a source of protein, in either a whole pellet or rough texture ration, are in fact already feeding some form of chelated trace mineral to their animals...




.

[Scrapelineranch]

Well....thanks? everyone. I should have done a little research before posting. Shane from MaxRax was kind enough to e-mail me. Seriously, no offense taken. I wonder why (and I will ask) my dealer why he not only suggested this, he offered to order me a bag. Or..(this hurts)..I might not be remembering correctly as it's been some time since we talked about this. Er-r-r-, I kud b rong. I can, however, ask a dumber question if y'all would like. What's the difference between top dressing and field dressing? Signed X Real Ol" Scrape. Now....have fun with this one!!! Ol' Scrape.

[IndependenceRanch]

So if I have learned from this discussion, the "milk calcium" that some are using is just a calcium in a chelated form which allows for better absorbtion by the body. Which means you can still use it without ill effects to the animal PROVIDED that the levels being used are still in a balanced state with the other minerals like phospherous.
My understanding is that the amounts being used vary greatly from farm to farm. That no one has determined what amount is the correct. I have heard some use ounces per ton of feed and some use pounds per ton of feed. Why don't someone who understands this stuff come up with some science to show what is the correct amount?

As to the drugs being used. I think it is wrong and I won't do business with someone who is using them. And I have a few suspects.

[Shane Horrocks]

I emailed Scrapeline, before this thred really got started, so to be fair:

Calcium carbonate is just a standard, economical form of calcium. Like John said, there are lots of different calcium sources (chelated and inorganic). Most people, whether you are feeding deer, cattle, dogs, cats, horses or pigs will use calcium carbonate as the primary calcium source. Tums, the heartburn medicine, is calcium carbonate. most feeds will also have dicalcium phosphate or monocalcium phosphate. these are just two different products that have both calcium and phosphorus in them. when we balance feeds, we target a specific amount of phosphorus that we want in the feed, say 0.7%. We do this by adding a phosphorus source (monocal or dical). then we add calcum carbonate to the feed to bring the calcium amount to a desired level, say 1.4%. Now you have a 1.4:0.7 calcium to phosphorus level or said another way 2:1 ratio.

You can use different forms of calcium (chelated or not chelated) in your deer feed, but figuring out how much the deer is going to use (absorb and not waste) from the specific calcium source you are using is the challenge. Some of the calcium in plants is only 30% absorbed by the animal, calcium carbonate can be 70% absorbable. Calcium citrate (chelated) is more absorbable than calcium carbonate. So on and so on... Now to say this about this "milk calcium" product. I (like many others) do not agree with certain giving drugs to increase antler growth, but milk calcium is not going to shorten the lifespan of a deer. it is a source of calcium (elemental form) and phosphorous (phosphate form). Since the calcium is elemental, it is very absorbable (90-95%). Companies have been using milk calcium to put into yogurts for calcium deficient people. It is expensive because it is human grade.

Keep in mind that the body has a way of regulating the absorption of calcium. The amount of calcium (calcium carbonate) to add to your feed will vary depending on the current calcium and phosphorous levels. It also depends on the dry matter intake of the feed by each deer. once the calcium levels in the blood hit a certain concentration determined by the kidneys, the animal starts to absorb less calcium and starts to excrete more in the feces. too much calcium can interfere with absorption of other nutrients like phosphorus and some fatty acids. By giving a deer "too much of a good thing" like ZZ said, is always a concern no matter what you are giving them. too much calcium, phosphorus, or an imbalance of the two can cause bladder stones to form, block urine excretion and severely hurt or kill the deer. A good healthy, balanced feed is always the solution to sucessful deer farming. try to target a 2:1 ca to p ratio and concentrate on using common ingredients like ca carb. chelated calciums are sometimes hard to come by and very expensive. sometimes we hear things that really confuse us or make us think that we could be doing something better. Feeds and feeding 101...keep feeds simple and effective. Good luck to all.

[wvdeerman]

Shane (or should I say Professor Horrocks),

Thank you so much for explaining things in Laymans terms. I have been trying to keep up with things but it gets difficult. I am the type of person that has to SEE things to understand it, reading just doesn't sink in my thick skull.

I have heard of guys putting hydrated lime in their feeds. Is this good or bad? What dosages are acceptable?

[IndependenceRanch]

Now to say this about this "milk calcium" product. I (like many others) do not agree with certain giving drugs to increase antler growth, but milk calcium is not going to shorten the lifespan of a deer. it is a source of calcium (elemental form) and phosphorous (phosphate form). Since the calcium is elemental, it is very absorbable (90-95%)

Hello Shane,
I stated that I am against the use of drugs for growing antler.
I however don't see this milk calcium stuff as being drugs based on what I am learning as we go. I think those who are using this milk calcium are just using another form of calcium from what the "norm" has been over the years.
That said I am hearing of some very large variations in the amounts being used. And I have yet to find anyone who knows what is the correct amount so as not to cause the deer health issues, or just feeding extra that is just wasted by excreting it out the backside of the deer. The ones who have been using it for years aren't talking either because it is their secret or they fear being blackballed for using it.
This stuff may be expensive, but if you don't need nearly as much of it in a batch then maybe the cost is no more than the normally used stuff.
How can someone determine the correct amount to use?
What other changes, if any, to a formula would need to be made to use it while staying balanced?
I am a firm believer in a balanced diet.
Maybe this conversation will help those who are using the stuff but are doing it blindly not knowing how much they should really be using.
For me, I need to see some science before I would consider it.

[CurtisLloyd]

I can double the amount of mineral in our pellet ration for $5.00/ ton by adding powered calcium , I would rather have my deer work their kidneys a little extra than have to pull the calcium they need out of their bones.

[ddwhitetails]

I would love to have a monster yearlings and God Willing I will someday........but that will be by the animal doing it all on their own.........If it is something that will harm the deer i am against using it. Alot of the things some of these farms are using are very unhealthy for our deer.....just as i wouldn't feed my child anything that is harmful to him I won't do it for my deer either........the deer are my responsibility and like I said before....you take care of them...they will take care of you.......this Industry really needs to step up to the plate and look into these types of things......if there are enhancers...and there are as i no what their using......and they are harmfiul to the deer.......this Industry needs to address the issue....just as they are adressing the issue in sports with steriods........yes it will cost money but it is for the best interest of these animals that we love....(well most of us love anyhow)......some look at the deer as just another way to make an extra dollar.....and if that is your interest....your in the wrong business........yeah its hard not to want to try to keep up with these crazy antlers that we are seeing today....but not when you love these animals and you want what is best for them.........to be honest.....alot of these crazy antlers you see today are pretty much to the point of not even looking like a whitetails rack anymore!! I don't want to get anyone mad that has these big animals as if you got them naturally and not by using the growth enhancers then you have nothing to be mad about...........I just hate to see anyone take advantage of an animals life just so they can make a dollar quicker. Respect these great animals the Lord has given us....if you don't......trust me you have a bigger payment coming your way than the one your getting today for cheating and your not going to like it.....the difference is the payment i am talking about is for an eternity!!!

[John Swank]

I emailed Scrapeline, before this thred really got started, so to be fair:

Calcium carbonate is just a standard, economical form of calcium. Like John said, there are lots of different calcium sources (chelated and inorganic). Most people, whether you are feeding deer, cattle, dogs, cats, horses or pigs will use calcium carbonate as the primary calcium source. Tums, the heartburn medicine, is calcium carbonate. most feeds will also have dicalcium phosphate or monocalcium phosphate. these are just two different products that have both calcium and phosphorus in them. when we balance feeds, we target a specific amount of phosphorus that we want in the feed, say 0.7%. We do this by adding a phosphorus source (monocal or dical). then we add calcum carbonate to the feed to bring the calcium amount to a desired level, say 1.4%. Now you have a 1.4:0.7 calcium to phosphorus level or said another way 2:1 ratio.

You can use different forms of calcium (chelated or not chelated) in your deer feed, but figuring out how much the deer is going to use (absorb and not waste) from the specific calcium source you are using is the challenge. Some of the calcium in plants is only 30% absorbed by the animal, calcium carbonate can be 70% absorbable. Calcium citrate (chelated) is more absorbable than calcium carbonate. So on and so on... Now to say this about this "milk calcium" product. I (like many others) do not agree with certain giving drugs to increase antler growth, but milk calcium is not going to shorten the lifespan of a deer. it is a source of calcium (elemental form) and phosphorous (phosphate form). Since the calcium is elemental, it is very absorbable (90-95%). Companies have been using milk calcium to put into yogurts for calcium deficient people. It is expensive because it is human grade.

Keep in mind that the body has a way of regulating the absorption of calcium. The amount of calcium (calcium carbonate) to add to your feed will vary depending on the current calcium and phosphorous levels. It also depends on the dry matter intake of the feed by each deer. once the calcium levels in the blood hit a certain concentration determined by the kidneys, the animal starts to absorb less calcium and starts to excrete more in the feces. too much calcium can interfere with absorption of other nutrients like phosphorus and some fatty acids. By giving a deer "too much of a good thing" like ZZ said, is always a concern no matter what you are giving them. too much calcium, phosphorus, or an imbalance of the two can cause bladder stones to form, block urine excretion and severely hurt or kill the deer. A good healthy, balanced feed is always the solution to sucessful deer farming. try to target a 2:1 ca to p ratio and concentrate on using common ingredients like ca carb. chelated calciums are sometimes hard to come by and very expensive. sometimes we hear things that really confuse us or make us think that we could be doing something better. Feeds and feeding 101...keep feeds simple and effective. Good luck to all.


Thank you Shane for sharing a very good explanation, and very well said... You explained it so much better than I was struggling to do... :D



.

[Shane Horrocks]

Hello Jack and Roger,

Hydrated Ca is AKA calcium hydroxide or agriculture lime. I do not have experience using this product, or know anyone elso who does use it, so I cannot say if it is ok or safe to use. Just knowing that it is a pretty basic compound, and that it is traditionally used to help reduce bacterial loads in animal pens or increase the pH of the soil, I'm not too sure if I would use it in my deer feed, and I'm not sure how it would affect the rumen.

Roger, I knew where you were going, I may not have been clear in my post. I agree with you and I don't think milk calcium is a drug either. The more we learn, the better we can do for the deer. Its kinda like the whole chelated mineral thing. Back in the day before chelates we had oxides and sufates (oxygen or sulfur bound to a trace mineral) Now we have chelates (amino acids or proteins bound to a trace mineral). I don't ever remember hearing about chelated trace minerals being bad for an animal just because they are expensive and more absorbable. I agree with you that if we can add less of a superior product than add more of a lower quality product, and get the same results then why not? But to answer your question, we do not have any really good (or any at all) scientific evidence on milk calcium for use in deer feeds. Those studies will have to be performed to understand how much the deer is absorbing and how much the deer is wasting. You are probably hearing much variation in the amount used because breeders are trying to find out what they think works best for them. Deer feeds that are initially lower in ca and p levels will perform better when more milk cal is added to them. Feeds that have higher ca and p levels may not need to be supplemented with as much milk cal to make a difference in performance. So much of the performance from the added milk cal may be attributed to generally higher levels of Ca and P in the feed and have little to do with it being a more bioavailable form. If this is true, you could use more calcium carbanate to achieve the same results and save $$. I too, am going to have to see some scientific evidence before I am convinced that this product is providing additional benefits.

[Shane Horrocks]

Now Jack, Professor Horrocks!? That title would obligate me to be a lot more responsible than I already am. Why would I want to do that?!! Haha...

[IndependenceRanch]

Thanks Shane.

[Scrapelineranch]

Thank you Shane for your unsolicited e-mail and you taking your time to post on this thread. I do use some of your product, which I purchase from Farmer's Co-op, Sulphur Springs, Tx. Your product/salesman is not those that I mention in my initial thread. Bob Taylor, Scrapelineranch.