weak fawn - white muscle disease?

[wvdeerman]

I have a 6 week old doe fawn that is having trouble getting up. I have noticed the past week that she doesn't seem to be very energetic and seemed a little lethargic. She is a single fawn and being mother raised. This morning she staggered around a little after finally getting to her feet. I did see her eat from mom and she pooped perfect pellets.

Can this still be a clostridium problem? She was given alpha 7 at birth. Or would this be white muscle disease? I do have BOSE but I have no idea how much to give. I was also going to give her some Banamine, penacillin and some C&D antitoxin.

Some advice is needed. Thanks

[stevel]

Jack, we give 1/2 cc of bose when we tag them at one day of age. Antitoxin would also seem in order. We give 2 cc's of that.

[Buckskin]

We also give BoSe when we tag 1cc SQ Possibly might try Vit B12 too.Rick

[Mitch P]

Jack if the Bo se doesn`t change things you may want to think of ole Monty`s theory. Thiamine deficiant. Shot of Thiamine or just try the B 12 complex. Wouldn`t really think perfringens with the Alpha 7 but we also have strain A that most of us don`t vaccinate for. Seems this problem has gone on a few days and with perfringens we normally don`t get that much time to fix things. The way we find out about strain A is normally through a necropcy. Sure has been a bunch of light bulbs going off in heads this year. Some things we have in the back of our minds but it takes a comment from someone else to spark the ole brain cells. Good luck Jack and keep em kicking.

[wvdeerman]

Thanks Guys !! I had an idea of what to do, just wanted to run it by you guys first.

I plan to give 1cc BOSE, 1cc B12 or B complex and 2cc C&D antitoxin.

Do you think any banamine and/or penacillin is needed or would that be too much?

If this is white muscle disease, how long will it take to see any improvement?

[IndependenceRanch]

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/91002.htm

The link above is some info to read about white muscle disease.

[redwood_river_whitetails]

Hope it all works for you Jack....just wanted to let you know that we too give 1cc BoSe at birth sub q.

[wvdeerman]

Roger, that is great information, thank you very much.

Susan, I appreciate your concern. How have things been going for you? I know you have had your share of bad luck this year.

Mitch, your a rock buddy. Thanks for always giving an answer when I need it.

When I got home this evening from work, she was having more difficulty getting up. I gave her 1cc BOSE and 1cc B complex. How long should it take to see any improvement? If she still has trouble tomorrow I plan to give her the 2cc C&D antitoxin and 1cc banamine.

Any other options?

[Scott Heinrich]

Just curious..........is this fawn in a pen with other does and their fawns?

[wvdeerman]

Hey Scott,

I am glad to get some input from you. YES, all my does and fawns are in the same pen...except for one doe and her twins. I have not had any issue like this with any other fawns this year. My pen is all wooded with no grass. They are 100% grain fed, with a natural spring fed creek.

The only thing related to this was I had a buck fawn with the same symptoms last year. The fawn that was sick last year with the same thing ( he did die) happend to be a full brother to the doe that has the sick fawn this year. They are full brother and sister from different years. The sick buck from last year, it is his full sisters doe fawn. Can this be a genetic thing?

If the BOSE is going to work, how long does it take before improvement is seen? What else can I try?

[wvdeerman]

The BOSE was given at 5pm yesterday, she is no better this morning. Actually she is probably worse, because she can't stand on her own now. I gave her 5cc C&D antitoxin at 7:30am this morning. How long does it take to see results if these drugs were going to work?

I am now out of ideas. If this isn't white muscle disease, what else could give these symtpoms?

[CurtisLloyd]

I'm guessing that your herd is not that large, It could be genetic, with a lower immunity than your other deer and could have a propensity toward getting the disease, for next year could you think about giving some protection in-utero by vacinating your doe late second trimester. If both the fawns did not get sick until 4-6 weeks of age they just may have a weak immune system and it takes that long for it to show itself.

[Robbie]

If it is a thiamine problem, 1 cc of B probably isn't enough. I would think 5cc of B Complex sub-cu, unless you can get straight thiamine from your vet, then maybe 2 cc's a day for 2 or 3 days until you see change.

I agree with Mitch, don't think this is a clostridial issue.

[Scott Heinrich]

I'm thinking something totally different. You stated "I have a 6 week old doe fawn that is having trouble getting up. I have noticed the past week that she doesn't seem to be very energetic and seemed a little lethargic. She is a single fawn and being mother raised. This morning she staggered around a little after finally getting to her feet. I did see her eat from mom and she pooped perfect pellets". I had a very similar issue a few years ago when for 3 years in a row, my best doe's fawns acted the same way. I treated for every disease known to man with no real success. I pulled the last set of fawns at age 3 weeks and they were the only ones to survive of the 3 sets she had over that time period. What I found out was I had another doe that would beat the daylights out of only the fawns from my best doe. I can't explain why this was happening other than the agressive doe was a real beeatch, but she only beat up on the fawns from the same doe. Not to say that this is your problem, but it may pay to observe and see if this is happening. Sometimes we treat just the symptoms without realizing the true cause.

[ZZ Whitetails]

Jack sorry can't come up with anything to help! Seems everyone has thrown around same ideas I had. Scott may have an answer. BO-SE should work in 24 hours or less, I can answer that. Sorry no help, keep the faith and good luck. Never give up! ZZ

[Scott Heinrich]

Maybe some Dex for a few days would help.

[wvdeerman]

Thanks to all of you that have given input on this thread. We have tried just about everything. This morning I gave her 4cc more B Complex (as Robbie sugested)and 1cc ivermectin. My vet is getting me some Dex the first of the week.

My wife went up yesterday and gave the fawn several cc orally of pedialite. The fawn is taking that. My wife also offered her a bottle this morning after some pedialite, and she took it. She did drink 2 ounces of formula very willing. The thing is this fawns mind is working perfectly. She is VERY alert and constantly grooming herself. She just can't get up.

Is there any diseases that cause nerve damage? she does walk like she has myscular dystrophy, or cerebral palsy or something like that.

[Arrowhead Whitetails]

Jack, if it is possible, you should pull her and bottle feed her. We have had does in the past that would take care of their fawns for a few weeks and then just stop. The fawns would starve to death without intervention from us. I don't know if it is the weather or what would trigger them to do this but one doe would ALWAYS follow this pattern. Good luck with her

[ZZ Whitetails]

Jack, I would get thiamine from the vet and inject 2-cc 3 times a day and see if this helps. Won't hurt and when they get to much you will smell it in her pee. When this happens cut back on dosage and give orally. When I read she was walking funny , we call it high stepping, act like they are not sure where the ground is, brought back to my shallow mind thiamine! Won't hurt anything and you can continue on Scotts path of trauma! Don't know how everyone raises fawns without it! Can't stress it enough already on my second 100ml bottle! ZZ

[Scott Heinrich]

Another thing to consider is possibly a deep inner ear infection, listeriosis, or even polio. The thiamine will fix the later two, but if it is a deep inner ear infection only surgery and a heavy regiment of antibiotics will help. I'm guessing here.

[Garden State Whitetails]

Question about the Thiamine?? Robbie wrote 2cc a day for a few day's. I just got some from my vet and it's 200mlg per ml. That was the weaker option, it also comes in 500mlg per ml. What would be the the correct dosage for about a 10lb fawn that's a week old with the 200mlg per ml strength. Any input would be appreciated??

Anthony

[wvdeerman]

To give an update on our fawn. She died about an hour ago. It was a long battle but she lost. We had a horrible time getting the B1, and apparently we were too late. She started being afflicted by pneumonia yesterday, so the fight got worse. Nobody carries B1, so it had to be ordered. It didn't get here until Tuesday, because of the weekend. Sometimes I just want to give up.

Garden State Whitetails, to answer your question, I would give an extra 1cc if you are using as a preventative and 3cc extra if using as a treatment. You can't overdose the fawn, it will simply pee out the excess.

Is deer farming legal in NJ? I haven't heard of anyone doing it there. Good Luck with your fawns.

[allenb]

Jack, I wish I had Known you were having trouble getting the Thiamine, I have a full bottle of 500mg. So sorry you lost her. Allen

[Mitch P]

Sorry Jack. I know what it`s like to fight the battle to end up loosing. The only thing we have is the piece of mind that we know we did all we could.

[Garden State Whitetails]

Thanks for the Reply Jack... Sorry to hear about your loss :(
Thank you for the advice!
Yes it is legal here in NJ but F&W is not promoting it. Permits that were issued are grandfathered in. We are trying to promote and grow the industry here.
I posted a thread on EVENTS AND ACTIVITIES about what's going over here in NJ. It should be the third one down. Check it out and lemme know what you think?
Anthony

[redwood_river_whitetails]

[QUOTE=wvdeerman;7673]To give an update on our fawn. She died about an hour ago. It was a long battle but she lost. We had a horrible time getting the B1, and apparently we were too late. She started being afflicted by pneumonia yesterday, so the fight got worse. Nobody carries B1, so it had to be ordered. It didn't get here until Tuesday, because of the weekend. Sometimes I just want to give up.

Hey Jack-

Sorry about your fawn....been pretty frustrating around here also.

Lost that fawn that I pulled out of my bottle fed from last year. It was a new pen and had too much tall grass in it. By the time we found him, it was too late to take in and see what he died from. She had abandoned him, but another doe was taking care of him. We didn't hear any crying so really wondering what he died from if it wasn't from starvation. This was about the same time that the coccidia hit us in the pen next to this one.

My other bottle fed doe from last year also abandoned her buck fawn, but we took him to bottle feed cuz the same doe was also taking care of him! Wish I would have taken the other one now. We also had a 2 year old doe that had a single doe fawn and she abandoned her also which that doe (we think) is taking care of along with her own!

What is going on with these does???!!! The only thing that I can think is that they were all big fawns at birth and the mother's just decided it hurt too much when they had them and wanted nothing to do with them cuz of the pain.

This doe that is taking care of all these fawns is the one that I posted with the floppy lump and her fawn (her own) is the sick one with the hard lump. Don't know if this is all connected, but seems to be.

Anyway, it's been totally hectic around here and fortunately all my bottle feds (22....I'm doing by myself right now) are all doing well and look really good. Although, next week, with the age differences I will have 4 different schedules. Won't get much done, but feeding fawns and washing bottles next week!!

Have 3 does to go yet, possibly 4. One more bottle fed doe (sigh) that looks like she won't have it for another 3-4 weeks. She is my Allstar doe, so it's a pretty important fawn coming and have a 12 year old doe and another yearling that looks like she's going to have twins (double sigh!!)

[allenb]

Susan sounds like you have your hands full, and will for some time yet. Hang in there and best of luck to you. Allen

[redwood_river_whitetails]

Yes, it's been tough going this week....but a person has to look on the bright side. Out of almost 50 fawns born on our farm this year, we have only lost that one buck fawn. A person has to thank God (and knock on some wood) that we have had such good luck this year. On another positive note, I am bottle feeding 5 buck fawns that the mothers wouldn't take care of. At least we were perceptive enough to notice those little guys or they wouldn't be here right now.

[ZZ Whitetails]

If we have yearlings fawning we pull all the fawns have had trouble in the past. You are probably right on about that hurt your on your own. Could be their bags are the same way swollen and sore and the fawn hurts so they say no way. Freinds have left their fawns on with no problem so who knows. 10 deer breeders 10 different opinions! ZZ

[redwood_river_whitetails]

Yes ZZ--I hear ya! A friend of ours doesn't seem to have the problem with the yearlings that we have had this year. Both of our yearlings (bottle fed) rejected their fawns and with 2-3 more (2 not being bottle fed) my hopes are not too high on those girls.

My personal opinion is it's not worth the stress of them having huge fawns and worrying about them taking care of them. They are just too young!! Maybe that is because I'm a woman and know what they had to go through!!!

[deerprincess06]

I just want to Thank all of you that gave Jack and I advice and support in trying to help out our little doe fawn, you all are great!!!!!!!
Thanks Again!!!!!

[Garden State Whitetails]

ZZ, figured I would move our conversation out here so it might help others. How many days should Thiamine be given?? Started it on Tues evening..

Seems when I give .5cc sub-Q she reacts better then when I put 1cc in the bottle? U mentioned something about it's different in the stomach?? Should I be using more of a dose in the bottle?