What would you pay for him???

[Barr'sWCT]

I was wondering what are deer farmers getting for a 160+ 12 point buck. Please give import on what you would either pay for this guy or sale him for.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

I'll jump in here with both feet-need a place to vent, actually. I have this same deer, basically, and I got offered $3,000 (shooter price) for him today and he comes with a package of 4 shooters.

Does anyone else feel they are running a nonprofit deer farm? I guess I should be thankful I actually had an offer.

[Reed68]

$3000 in Oklahoma----SOLD, and be happy.

[Barr'sWCT]

I was just wondering what other deer farms were getting for their shooters. This buck is the first one I have to sell. My husband and I don't have a big deer farm --we are just looking to sell a few shooters each year. But I would like to make some money on them. I am new at all of this and don't know what shooters are going for here in PA. I didn't want to start anything --just trying to get some input on what other farmers are getting or being offered. The offer that was made my husband said we will keep the buck for another year. This buck went from scoring 120 last year to 160+ this year. So if we don't get what we want --I guess we will keep him another year. --Thanks for everyones input.

[Scott Heinrich]

3000-4000 is about the going price for a non-pedigreed 160 class buck these days.

[Liveoak]

I would say 2500-3500 would be a good offer depending on what he finishes at. That would be all I would pay.

[Barr'sWCT]

Well Scott & Liveoak to bad I don't live in LA or TX.

Scott the buck that I have showing in out of a 200 class pedigree. His sire scored 200 at 5 yrs. old. I know that there are deer out that score that before 5. Not sure if anyone of mine will. But in the process of breeding and purchasing I stayed with in that class pedigrees. I will just have to wait and see what I get. I am just want to make sure I get a fair price for the buck when I go to sell.

[ANTLER VALLEY]

I may have overreacted on the price I got (Reed68) so probably the bigger issue is the overabundance of deer for sale these days, the recession causing the demand to plumet, and "those guys" who are able to raise and shoot their own deer on the same farm. Add all of this to a newer farmer trying to get his foot in the door and you've got a recipe for financial disaster.

[Reed68]

Watch the Ohio sale online or go, and you will get a feel of were the market stands. I usually wait until that sale to price my shooters.

[Liveoak]

As a breeder and a buyer I'll give my two cents worth here on this subject because its really coming to it this year. Barrs, it wouldnt matter to me if that buck is maxbo bred to a bucky daughter, I see an upper 150/lower 160 buck, doesnt matter if he's 24 inches wide or 15 he still pays the same amount of bills for me. If he's 3 he's worth top dollar for his size, 4 a little less, 5 even less at this time of the year. My personal preference is that a buck thats released in august or september needs to be shot that fall, a buck thats released in late winter can get to 4 or 5 before he's a shooter. I prefer the bucks I release late summer to be 3's at the oldest 4 but I have had to release 5's and older at the end of summer before and usually one of two things happens, they die without ever a hunter having an opportunity at them or they disappear and a hunter never has a chance at them, 90% of the time I'm out the money I paid for said deer.
A 3 on the other hand easily adapts(within reason) and "participates" in the fall activities thus enhancing my hunters chances of harvesting them.

Which brings me to my next point, I as a buyer cant help it if you spent $5000 on a straw of semen, fed him top of the line feed, built the best pens and handling facility on earth and got a 160" buck out of it. That deer is still only worth x amount of dollars to me. To me the best way to purchase bucks is on a scale, the same theyre shot on, by the inches of horn on their head individually. Agree on a price scale and when you knock the deer down to move measure him and thats your price. If you have a group of animals and can agree on a price then thats good but to me that only works well for groups of 10 or more bucks. Even then I would photo each one from different angles and have an idea within an inch or two what each buck will score before I agree to a price.

Barrs, to me, if you can produce bucks like that each year you can sell them and make money in the long run if you dont over extend yourself on genetics. Not saying your genetics are bad but theyre stocker genetics and you're stuck with that markets prices. The best thing you can do is find ads, brochures, websites for outfitters near you that have preserves, look at their prices and figure your buck is worth 40-60% of what they get for that size hunt. Be proactive and call them to let them know what you have and see if they want to make an offer for it.If its a year where hunter numbers are down like this I'd say if I got offered 50% I'd jump on it. To me a stocker/shooters best value will be at 3. Remember too that if thats the only buck you have for sale theyre probly not going to drive 4 hours to pay top of the line price for it if they can pay $500 more and get it in a package of ten 15 minutes from where they are.

To me, this is where so many people that get into this industry are misled or misguided into buying things that arent going to pay out in the end. With every straw of semen you buy you have to be willing to throw that money away even if deer are concieved because theres a 60-75% chance(thats low) that bucks going to only be a shooter. Most people dont seem to prepare themselves for that. I'm not saying thats the case here, I'm only saying it seems to be the case most of the time I go to look at a group of 150" 3 year olds, I dont care what their pedigrees are, just the horn on their heads and what I can sell them for.........

[Wooden acres]

I hope you don't mind if I chime in here . If the buck above goes for a shooter here in Wi he'd bring about $2700.00 as a 160 class buck . If he grows out a bit larger and makes a 170 he'd bring about $3800.00 to $4000.00. For a breeder ? Gosh not many people looking for a 160 breeder these days . Just for an example if you took $3,000.00 and went on the Exchange you could probably buy close to 10 straws of semen from close to 300 in class bucks . No they'd not be the big name bucks but they'd be much much bigger than 160 thats for sure and real close to 300 and sons of some fairly well known bucks. I don't mean to sound harsh but I'd think a 160 is a shooter in todays market . I really wish I was wrong because it would make this business much easier for all of us me too . Reeds right watch the sales and the Ohio sale is coming up soon . Just my thoughts nothing more .

[John Swank]

Very well said, Steven... Very well said!!

[alpha and omega whitetail]

Barr, are you a member of the PA Deer Farmers? There is the annual fall auction and breeder sale comming up in September in Johnstown at the war memorial arena on September 11-12. There will be a lot of shooter bucks there and it would give you a chance to see the going prices and you might be able to sell them there as well. The consignments are closed but you could make a side deal. He is a nice shooter buck. For information on the PA show, contact Jerry Campbell at (847) 778-8327

[Barr'sWCT]

First of all I would like to respond to some of your replys.

Steven--thank you so much for your reply I am going to print it out--you were very straight forward to me and gave it to me on this is how it works for the buyers and also gave me the advise on being a seller and deer farmer. I do completely understand as a buyer is doesn't matter it I paid 5,000.00 for the staw or breeder buck for this guy --you look at the antlers. My husband and I got into deer farming because we have 25 acres of land and wanted to use it to make a few extra dollars for when it comes time for my husband to retire. So we set a goal that we would like to gave 3-5 shooter bucks to sell each year. I am not out to raise that munster buck. If by chance one would turn out that way then great for us if not and I can raise nice shooters and get 2,000-4000.00 for them then I met my goal . Thank you again for your reply

Wooden Acres: There is no way I would try to sell this buck as a breeder. But on the other hand I used him for my breeder buck for the fawns that were born this spring. His pedigree is a nice one for what my husband and I want to raise. The buck fawn he sired last spring is looking really nice this year matter afact his yealing son is bigger than what he was as a yearling.

Antler Valley: You are right on your reply--I am just a new deer farmer trying to get a foot in the door. And for some reason it seems hard to do that but I will keep at it--hopefully with the grace of God my husband and I will meet our goal on what we are hoping to do.

Alpha & Omega whitetail--Yes I am a member of the PA Deer Farmers I know about the auction coming up --I am hoping that my husband and I can attend it. Not sure if I am going to purchase any thing but it will give me an idea on what shooters are going for. My husband and I did attend the auction in the spring at Johnstown and meet talked to some of the deer farmers there. We did donate a doe fawn for the sale but it didn't sell. Our CWD status isn't high enough for other farmers (3yrs) We are not TB or Bros cert. so that hurts us too.

Well thank you all again for your input.

[wvdeerman]

I think everyone is right in line with the guesses that they have made. I was waiting to see what everyone else was going to say, but my first thought was from $2500 to $3500 depending upon who, what, and where the deer was being marketed. Preserves will usually pay half of what they sell a hunt for in that class of buck. Their explanation is based on the argument that they are supplying room and food for the hunter, the staffing maintenance of their ranch and also taking a chance that this deer may die before he actually gets shot.

Here is the other side of the argument. You may be unhappy with the offer, but a bird in the hand is how I think of it. What if this deer gets sick or dies in the next year? Then you may be left with no income at all. The other thing, what if the deer breaks an antler next year and has no value to a preserve?

I wish you luck while you wrestle with yourself over this issue. Its always damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[Barr'sWCT]

You know Jack you are right--dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. You have also brought up some good points too. I will have to mention them to my husband. I will have to start doing my research and see what hunts are going for and contact some perserves closer to me & see what I come up with. I am glad I did this trend--you have all been very helpful and I am grateful for all of your input. I would love to sell this deer this year.

[Aaron_CCDR]

Our selling prices (in our area) are as follows:

We actually have a chart that is a 4 level chart that takes into consideration clean to trashed out look. That is why there is such a variance in prices to sizes. This is just the prices that were figured for selling out of our region / area.

154 to 163 .......... 2250 - 3000
164 to 173 .......... 2750 - 3500
174 to 183 .......... 4250 - 5000
184 to 192 .......... 5250 - 6000
193 to 201 .......... 7500 - 8250
202 to 211 .......... 9000 - 10500
212 to 221 .......... 11500 - 13000
222 and up are quote only

[Barr'sWCT]

Aaron--Thanks for the price list since you are from Indiana I will print this and compare it to PA prices.

[Aaron_CCDR]

I would be interested to see how the prices compare. This is not to say that all buyers pay these prices either. It is just a guideline that we use when selling.

An example on how the chart works is this

For the 154 to 163 range buck
Level 1......2250 (Very Trashy) Level 2......2500 Level 3.........2750 Level 4......3000 (Very Clean little to no trash)

I hope this explains how it works.

[Barr'sWCT]

Aaron---I figured something like that when you said it all depended on the look of the rack. I will let you know what I come up with for prices here in PA.

[gcw matt]

Thanks all this is a good tread! It's nice to see great input without everyone arguing!

[Barr'sWCT]

Yes I agree Matt --I am glad I didn't start a war. I am just a small honest business person trying to make a few dollars. Well anyway this is what I came up with for the hunt prices in PA. I did a seach on the internet and found 4 hunting preserves in Penna. I took the average price of the 4 prices for a hunt for a deer that would score 160-169 The average hunt would cost 6348.75 now remember this price is based on the average of the 4 preserves. So lets round it to 6350.00 so I would get a selling price of 3175.00-3810.00 or rounding to 3200.00-3800.00 which would be 50% to 60 % of the hunt charge. So I believe I have come up with my selling prices. I am going to still watch the Ohio sale and the PA sale and see what the prices are going to be. I am keeping my list of rates from each of these hunting preserves for the future. Thanks everyone of all your help and Good luck to each and everyone of you with the coming up season.

[stevel]

I have to say that Steve has stated very well the way things are in this business. We chose to get into high end genetics and hope that we grew a few elite scoring bucks and that the "duds" would be high priced shooters in the 180" and above category. Reality is that only a handful of breeders can command the super high prices for breeding stock. The fact that some of these prices are rigged by friends helping friends is frustrating but a fact of life in the industry. I still believe that the smartest way to go is to buy the best genetics you can afford, and don't overlook the super deals you can get from the little guys with top genetics. You will soon find that you have high scoring bucks that more than pay for themselves at the shooter auctions. And you never know, you may grow something that attracts the attention of the big guys and hit a real good payday once in a while.

[Wooden acres]

Barr's first of all if your a small HONEST business your already in an elite group . Lots of bullcrap goes on in this deer farming thats for sure . Sometimes the prices paid for shooter may seem low for the care and attention you have in an animals but in my book it's still much better than raising beef. Tried that for awhile and $1,000.00 for a beefer is GREAT money and they eat tons more feed ..lol Stevel hit the nail on the head very few get into that big money breeding stock and theres some inside bidding going on in some sales so watch that and use your best judgement. Plan to sell shooters and if something special happens then it's just iceing on the cake . Just a thought !!

[Barr'sWCT]

Wooden Acres--Not to sure what you mean by "first of all if your a small HONEST business" it seems your responses are not so nice some times. Your first reply--you had to make a dig--by saying something about selling this deer as a breeder and paying that much for one and going on line and purchasing straws. I never once said any thing about selling this buck as a breeder buck my question was about shooters. And now you question about being and HONEST person. You really should read the posting more carefully before giving digs at people. I am first of all a HONEST person--I treat people as I would want to be treated. Also if I do anything that is not honest I have always felt it would come back and bite me in the rearend. My husband feels the same way. I post questions on here to get advice from other deer farmers not to start a war about something or get digged at. Every else that has responsed to my posting has be very helpful and supportive which I am grateful for. For the most part this has been a nice thread. Just my toughts

On another note: My husband and I are just planning on raising only shooters and if something special happens then yes it will be icening on the cake. I do believe that some bullcrap goes on and when my gut feeling tells me to walk away I walk away. I not only deal with the deer business I also deal in the horse business so if you want to talk about bullcrap going on you should try the horse business.

[Wooden acres]

Barr's you took my reply all wrong . I meant if your honest your already in an elite group , the GOOD group . Elite means the CHOICE OR BEST CLASS OF PEOPLE !! Look it up ! We need more HONEST deer people there are already to many dishonest ones . I meant that in a very very good way and in no way meant it as any kind of dig ! HONEST IS GOOD ! Also I know you never meantioned selling your buck as a breeder I only meant many of us are stuck so to speak in the shooter markets me included so the lower prices are something we just need to live with. Hey I broke horses for a living once and just gave my old cutting horse away , so ya I know that business all to well too . Many a good race horse has come from just east of my place including one heck of a great trainer DuWayne Lucas himself . I'm sorry you took my posts as a type of dig , but I meant them in a very complementry way !! If your honest your ELITE !!! Just a thought ...

[Barr'sWCT]

Wooden Acres-Sorry if I took your replies the wrong way.

[Wooden acres]

Barr's hey thats ok but honestly I meant you the very best ! I'll always favor the small or large HONEST producers over the farms that seem to pull everything and anything on other deer farmers. Beleive me I've been HAD way to many times and had by those that get on here and do nothing but brag up their deer and how wonderful they do business . The deer business often reminds me of a saying in the movie Gladiator . "Win the crowd and you win your freedom "!! Yup win the crowd in this business and you win the opportunity to shaft buyers and get away with it , everyone will believe you did the right thing. Do business with those you trust and I mean TRUST . Ask questions when buying animals and ask lots of them !! There really are some wonderful good honest people raiseing and selling deer and they'll do their very best to give you a great deal and see to it both you as the buyer as well as they as a seller both are happy in the end . I don't mean to sound harsh over the deer business as I really really enjoy it and have met some of the best people in the world , but in 30 years in the cattle business I haven't been shafted or had no where near as much as my 7 years in this business . Learn how to AI your deer and you'll be amazed at how fast your genetic's will take off ! Sorry for the way I came across to you , I didn't mean to . Just my thoughts..

[Barr'sWCT]

New to AI going to try it this year. I can normally tell if a person is giving me BS or not. One of the reasons why I am so honest is that this is my deer farm and I don't want to get a bad name for my farm. I want to make sure that my name is out there and it is all good talk when the farm name comes up. So far the deer farmers I have done business with have been all good experances.

[dcwhitetails]

Barrs, i pretty good judge For Bs,also,if you stick around you will find Ole ross,Speak with a true tongue,tells it like it is,wished was more like him,we get burned from jumping into things, for the homework, honest people trust all,(once). and it only takes once,DC

[CameronCrow]

I'd pay right $2250 now if he was is TX

[Josh]

$2250 is more in line than $3200-$3800

[Barr'sWCT]

Josh--If anyone knows me you do ---Randy just told you this weekend what he wants for this buck and we both know he wants to much for him. Like we talked about on friday we are going to keep him another year. Thanks for taken the time for us on friday enjoyed our visit with you. Hope to see you in Johnstown.

[Tim Condict]

Barr's,
I will give you some advice. Sell the buck, breed with the one year old, and don't feed him another year. He could die, get smaller or grow some. I wouldn't expect him to grow much and his width is not the best. I figure you being new to the business you may have moved him there. If so that usually sets them back and he probably won't recover enough to pay for the extra feed. Also in the future when you buy more deer, don't chase those high scores. Go after deer that are wide, heavy and tall. You are wanting to raise shooters and thats as good as it gets. There aren't many customers out there wanting to shoot 300 plus inch bucks. They all want to shoot wide, tall, heavy deer with drop tines.
Keep in mind if you are not in the game of chasing paper around, you can get very good genetics without puting a second mortgage on the house. The best producers on my farm are those same old does I've always had. The ones I have with the fancy papers don't seem to get it done. All the stuff Steve said is also right on. You also have to watch Wooden, he and I have a whole nuther language. Its from being raised poor and honest. Most of the time growin up I wore three boots, 2 on my feet and 1 up my rearend. Good luck in the future and you can feel free to e-mail me any questions you have.

[dcwhitetails]

I gotta Say spoken with a tru tongue! good advice, glad you found us,:D Dc

[Josh]

Look forward to seeing you and Randy as well. Heed Tim's advice. Sell him...Take care.

[Barr'sWCT]

I would sell him but my husband will not. So what do I do. Tim --I didn't move the deer here I purchased him 3 yrs ago as a fawn so he has been raised here.

[ddwhitetails]

At three years old you know whether or not they are going to be a breeder or a stocker buck ......I would agree with what Tim said and sell him..........get your money out of him while you can..........I hate to say it as I think everyone knows but really doesn't want to admit it........with this economy where it is right now we are in for a rough few years.........people are cutting their spending and the first thing that gets cut is luxuries.....like buying a hunt.......and with this being said, there are many....many farms out there with shooter bucks to sell..........the hunt bookings are down.....meaning the market will soon be flooded with very nice bucks everywhere for sale.........unfortunately, we have little control over this and just have to hunker down and hang on for the ride........but with this all said.......sell the deer if you have a buyer!!

[Liveoak]

Well Barrs, you asked a very good question and got a lot of good answers from a lot of different types of breeders and buyers. There's some good advice in the answers. I dont know what you paid for the buck as a fawn but I'm guessing thats got something to do with your husband not selling and its understandable. The numbers arent adding up. I know I over paid on deer early on and I had to cut my losses and start moving in the right direction, this may or may not be your case but I hope whatever decision the two of you come to it works out for you. This is how you "trim the fat" and get your program moving the direction it needs to be to fit in the market and be profitable for you. This is definently one business where you either lose money starting off or you pour a ton of money into it to get it right in the first couple of years.

Honestly, if you wouldve done the things 3 years ago that you did in the last week and knew about what that buck fawn would be worth today at that size would it have changed some of your decisions about things along the way? Dont get me wrong, I do everything I can to keep my deer healthy but I have a number that I try not to go over by the time I get a deer to 3 years old and that includes a 20% mortality rate for that age class of bucks. Its a great business to be in and I dont think my family will ever do anything else but it is a business and sometimes its hard to make the best business decisions. Hell, I have 3 bucks in my pens that wont ever leave this place because thats whats best for my marriage...... I'm sure there's probably others in the same boat. Just do whats best for you in this situation and use what you've learned moving forward. Best of luck

[Wooden acres]

Gosh every day we raise these critters and everytime we sell one as well as buy one ,it's a learning experience. THATS FOR SURE . These guys are on the right track , theres so many variables from year to year and the economy stinks right now . I figure everytime I get a buck sold and out of here I've accomplished something , may not be just what I had in mind but it's something . Ya some of us have a different language and we have it for various reasons but I always tell it like I see it and no bullcrap just the good old truth , it's the only way I know how . It's how I was raised too. Yup Tim many of us had those three shoes and we only wore two just like you said . I can't see people getting taken in this business or any other business and just look the other way , I just can't because I think it's wrong . Wrong wrong wrong !! If I get so called black balled some day for speaking up and telling the truth then so what no big deal in my book it was worth it. Learn how to AI your deer and learn how to do it yourself it's the best tool there is in my book for raiseing deer . I'd really like to get out and about AIing deer for people , but I'd only do it for those I thought were on the up and up 100 percent honest farms and I'd do it for free if I had the time . Just a thought .

[wthollow]

Hi, Barrs I am in missouri i sold a 3 year old last year that scored right at 170 and got 3500 for him.I think if you could get close to 3000 for him that would be a great price for him in this market.I am in missouri though and not in pa.